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> MPS- delving into it's secrets?, Update January 3, 2011
jk76.914
post Jan 30 2010, 11:57 AM
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I collected a number of MPS over a couple of years. Most held vacuum, some did not. I measured inductance vs. vacuum on those that I could, but then took all of them apart (except one brand new one).

The is a lot of variety in the diaphrams, probably because they get replaced when virtually every MPS is rebuilt. The photo below shows four diaphrams. I'll follow with descriptions and observations...

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#1- copper, 2 pleats. This came from a rebuilt MPS that was in a pond or river for some time. There was actually sand in it, along with tiny aquatic snail shells of some sort, and the copper was pretty much green. This diaphram was ruptured. The workmanship is very good, and the alloy is idential to stock (see chart below). The threaded bushing looks like stock in design and attachment.

#2- copper, 3 pleats. This is a stock diaphram from a riveted MPS. It is ruptured.

#3- brass, 2 pleats. This is from a rebuilt MPS. I have three of these diaphrams, all similar. This MPS was freshly rebuilt in a rebuilder's box. Looked like new with fresh paint and plastic cap on vacuum port, but it leaked slightly. You can see why when you look at the ripples in that flange. The O.D. looks like it was cut out by hand with tin snips, and the threaded bushing was taken from a stock diaphram and soldered by hand into place. At the bottom in the picture, you can see that the flange is pretty smooth- that's where I tapped it out with a machinist's hammer on an anvil. I have no doubt that the leakage was from around the O.D. of the diaphram, and that tapping it out would probably fix it. This material (brass, see chart below) is stiffer and thicker than any of the rest. It would add quite a bit of spring tension to the mass-spring-damper system. In general, I rate the workmanship on this as "crappy", though maybe you could get a running car out of it.

#4- stainless steel, 3 pleats. This one is a bit of an enigma. It is identical to stock except that it is made from stainless (see chart below). The workmanship is perfect. It is from a rebuilt MPS. Interestingly, it is the MOST COMPLIANT of all of them, while most steel ones are reported to be stiffer. The other part of the enigma- the aneroid cells from this MPS are also stainless- same alloy. My suspicion is that this is a late Bosch rebuilt. Who else would make stainless cells, because the cells don't fail very often, so there are lots of spares available out there, and the cells are pretty complicated to make...


*** EDITED *** Materials. I measured alloy composition at work using an X-Ray Fluorescence analyzer. This machine is very precise, but it has limits to the range of elements that it can detect. Unfortunately, it cannot detect Beryllium (Be), and it is likely that the stock (at least) diaphram contains Be to harden and strengthen it. You can see a couple of things here though- the stainless diaphram and stainless cells are of exactly the same composition- nickel-chromium stainless steel. The nickel explains why they are slightly magnetic, as many stainless alloys are not. ***

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Conclusions (really opinions) - The diaphram was put in there (early VW D-jets did not have one) to provide altitude compensation and to soften transition from leaner (high vacuum) to richer (low vacuum) regions. Early D-Jets had a separate unit with a diaphram and a switch to inform the ECU to richen the mixture at low vacuum. Cost reduction may have been a third reason- eliminating the separate unit, wiring, vacuum hose, etc. Anyway, this switch was either on or off, no soft transition. The MPS had only 2 aneroid cells and no diaphram, and its inductance curve was essentially a straight line from 0" to 25". There was no mixture compensation for altitude with this arrangement.

I'm thinking that the lower the stiffness of the diaphram, the more consistency in the setup and responsiveness, while both of these objectives are met. By maximizing compliance of the diaphram, the springs acting in the system are mainly the coil spring and the leaf springs that act to locate the armature.

My stainless diaphram is the most compliant, but there is another feature of steel (if I remember correctly) that adds to the argument that this is a late Bosch design- steel has a much higher Youngs modulus than copper. The higher the Youngs modulus, the greater the fatigue resistance, and the vastly most common failure mode of the MPS is fatigue failure. Could this have been a Bosch attempt to solve a reliability problem, even as the technology was being superceded by more modern ones? Since the cells are also subject to fatigue, would they have switched them over at the same time?

I am planning on assembling my own personal MPS using the stainless parts, and seeing how close I can tune it to my engine.

There are lots of other parts in the MPS that I've formed opinions about, but I'll hold off for now.

These are my own opinions, which may not be popular, so BLAST AWAY!!

(eye candy below)
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Posts in this topic
jk76.914   MPS- delving into it's secrets?   Jan 30 2010, 11:57 AM
Bartlett 914   Great Job! That is interesting information. If...   Jan 30 2010, 12:32 PM
underthetire   Good work! It was always assumed it was BeCu, ...   Jan 30 2010, 01:20 PM
jk76.914   Good work! It was always assumed it was BeCu,...   Jan 30 2010, 04:14 PM
detoxcowboy   "This came from a rebuilt MPS that was in a p...   Jan 30 2010, 11:19 PM
Dave_Darling   They gave it the "float test"? ;) (Mus...   Jan 31 2010, 01:21 AM
914Sixer   Of the MPS I have taken apart, I have only seen ve...   Jan 31 2010, 08:08 AM
pbanders   Wow, really great info! With your permission a...   Feb 1 2010, 11:11 AM
jk76.914   Wow, really great info! With your permission ...   Feb 1 2010, 08:46 PM
pbanders   I measured several (maybe 6) aneroid cells sets u...   Feb 2 2010, 09:25 AM
realred914   Wow, really great info! With your permission...   Dec 7 2010, 02:22 PM
mtndawg   This information is great.This is what I've of...   Feb 1 2010, 04:31 PM
jk76.914   I'm back. I looked in to this, and unfortunat...   Feb 9 2010, 05:49 AM
ArtechnikA   ...anyone know how I can go in and edit that post...   Feb 9 2010, 06:17 AM
pbanders   I used to do a lot of surface analysis when I work...   Feb 9 2010, 08:57 AM
pbanders   I used to do a lot of surface analysis when I wor...   Feb 9 2010, 09:53 AM
pbanders   Also seems like once we get a material and a desig...   Feb 9 2010, 10:02 AM
Bleyseng   From RustyWa years ago in a PM to me. "You ...   Feb 9 2010, 10:47 AM
pbanders   From RustyWa years ago in a PM to me. "You...   Feb 9 2010, 10:53 AM
Bleyseng   From RustyWa years ago in a PM to me. "Yo...   Feb 9 2010, 11:17 AM
Jeff Bowlsby   As easy as it would be to make it from pure copper...   Feb 9 2010, 02:36 PM
pbanders   Jeff's right, pure Cu is very soft. Ever hear ...   Feb 9 2010, 05:19 PM
jk76.914   The Niton XL-800 is also an X-ray fluroescence ins...   Feb 9 2010, 07:08 PM
Bleyseng   yeah but, Eric's testing showed no Be just Al,...   Feb 9 2010, 07:20 PM
jk76.914   Quick update. I did the crappy brass characteriza...   Feb 11 2010, 04:59 AM
jk76.914   Yesterday during lunch, we tried to press apart a ...   Feb 20 2010, 11:43 AM
ArtechnikA   So we sectioned it. Take a look.... As you can ...   Feb 20 2010, 02:16 PM
underthetire   did the ring seem hard yet gummy when you cut it? ...   Feb 20 2010, 12:39 PM
kwales   I think yer making this too hard. I agree with th...   Feb 20 2010, 05:19 PM
jk76.914   I think yer making this too hard. I agree with t...   Feb 21 2010, 07:43 AM
76-914   Great stuff here. I'll bet ya'll will have...   Feb 20 2010, 06:58 PM
pbanders   Great stuff, a few comments. One, the design of th...   Feb 21 2010, 09:23 AM
jk76.914   Great stuff, a few comments. One, the design of t...   Feb 21 2010, 12:13 PM
kwales   I think they make the PEM's out of the stuff t...   Feb 21 2010, 12:05 PM
McMark   You guys are awesome for researching this... :notw...   Feb 21 2010, 12:09 PM
jk76.914   OK. I took some more photos. These three are cop...   Feb 21 2010, 01:49 PM
jk76.914   Picked up a -010 MPS this week, allegedly from a V...   Feb 27 2010, 04:57 PM
ArtechnikA   The diaphram hub is idential to stock, which I...   Feb 28 2010, 05:16 AM
McMark   :trophy: :notworthy:   Feb 27 2010, 11:43 PM
rick 918-S   Love this science stuff!   Feb 28 2010, 12:23 AM
914Sixer   Really amazing reading!! :Qarl:   Feb 28 2010, 07:35 AM
Thomas J Bliznik   Really amazing reading!! :Qarl: :ag...   Feb 28 2010, 08:30 AM
jk76.914   Really amazing reading!! :Qarl: :a...   Feb 28 2010, 11:33 AM
pbanders   Anybody have any connections at Bosch? FWIW, th...   Mar 1 2010, 11:20 AM
pbanders   It would be great if we could get Bosch to supply ...   Mar 1 2010, 11:14 AM
pbanders   FYI, are others aware of the Bosch Classic web sho...   Mar 1 2010, 11:29 AM
pbanders   FWIW, I sent an email to the guy in Bosch Germany ...   Mar 1 2010, 06:02 PM
jk76.914   FWIW, I sent an email to the guy in Bosch Germany...   Mar 1 2010, 06:30 PM
jk76.914   OK, some images from that -010 Volvo MPS. First t...   Mar 1 2010, 06:45 PM
jk76.914   Nice clean housing. Not perfect, but not bad. Yo...   Mar 1 2010, 07:09 PM
Bleyseng   . Also found another of those plastic rings... W...   Mar 2 2010, 09:21 AM
pbanders   FYI, I've made some interesting connections at...   Mar 3 2010, 10:48 AM
pbanders   OK, here's a bit more info. There's a news...   Mar 3 2010, 11:14 AM
kwales   While you are on a roll, Howsabout fuel injectors...   Mar 3 2010, 02:18 PM
SirAndy   Howsabout fuel injectors....... :agree: We sh...   Mar 3 2010, 02:33 PM
pbanders   Howsabout fuel injectors....... :agree: We s...   Mar 3 2010, 02:51 PM
jk76.914   Brad's link links to Bosch Traditions, which i...   Mar 3 2010, 06:55 PM
jk76.914   Did anybody say throttle position sensor? Here...   Mar 3 2010, 07:17 PM
computers4kids   Yikes...that's $218 US dollars :blink: ...   Mar 3 2010, 07:39 PM
jk76.914   Yikes...that's $218 US dollars :blink: ...   Mar 3 2010, 08:05 PM
computers4kids   [quote name='computers4kids' post='1281997' date=...   Mar 3 2010, 10:26 PM
jk76.914   Nevermind. I found the english version at eBay-UK...   Mar 3 2010, 08:55 PM
pbanders   Yeah, I should have been more clear. I knew the ha...   Mar 3 2010, 09:39 PM
Bleyseng   Maybe I can send them the box of 50 dead MPSs siit...   Mar 4 2010, 01:24 AM
jk76.914   Too bad you can't just get a kit. Diaphram, o...   Mar 4 2010, 04:34 AM
McMark   Jim, tuning is the real issue with a home rebuild ...   Mar 4 2010, 12:33 PM
Bleyseng   Jim, tuning is the real issue with a home rebuild...   Mar 5 2010, 09:58 AM
jk76.914   Jim, tuning is the real issue with a home rebuil...   Mar 5 2010, 04:56 PM
Larouex   [quote name='Bleyseng' post='1282691' date='Mar 5...   Mar 8 2010, 09:29 AM
Bleyseng   [quote name='Bleyseng' post='1282691' date='Mar ...   Mar 8 2010, 10:52 AM
pbanders   First you weld a "bung" onto the exhaus...   Mar 8 2010, 11:05 AM
jk76.914   I know. But I also I think there's an opportu...   Mar 4 2010, 07:53 PM
mtndawg   I sent an email to Bosch via the Traditions web si...   Mar 5 2010, 09:46 AM
1988Hawk   4 new 2.0 injectors from Otto, not cheap but reaso...   Mar 5 2010, 07:03 PM
pbanders   Matthias is the same guy I'm communicating wit...   Mar 5 2010, 11:06 PM
jk76.914   Exchanged emails with Herr Matthias Klumpp at Bosc...   Mar 8 2010, 05:24 AM
ArtechnikA   I would be quite surprised if Bosch made a rebuild...   Mar 8 2010, 06:07 AM
pbanders   I would be quite surprised if Bosch made a rebuil...   Mar 8 2010, 10:36 AM
kconway   So if Bosch does a rebuild kit over a complete reb...   Mar 8 2010, 11:08 AM
pbanders   So if Bosch does a rebuild kit over a complete re...   Mar 8 2010, 11:18 AM
jk76.914   So if Bosch does a rebuild kit over a complete r...   Mar 8 2010, 07:49 PM
jk76.914   So if Bosch does a rebuild kit over a complete re...   Mar 8 2010, 08:04 PM
Bleyseng   Even when Bosch comes out with a new or rebuilt MP...   Mar 8 2010, 09:18 PM
3d914   Any update on this? Curious 914 owners are watchin...   Oct 17 2010, 11:13 PM
jk76.914   Any update on this? Curious 914 owners are watchi...   Oct 18 2010, 03:15 AM
trfrick   This is what I received from Bosch regarding rebui...   Dec 6 2010, 02:25 PM
r_towle   fantastic news   Dec 6 2010, 02:52 PM
jk76.914   Well, I guess it's time to get back at this. ...   Dec 6 2010, 07:04 PM
jk76.914   I've set aside trying to make diaphrams for no...   Dec 6 2010, 07:14 PM
SirAndy   I've set aside trying to make diaphrams for no...   Dec 6 2010, 09:50 PM
jk76.914   I also toyed with the idea of making a test diaphr...   Dec 6 2010, 07:20 PM
jk76.914   Here's a loose end from last spring. I dissec...   Dec 6 2010, 07:29 PM
Bleyseng   Here's a loose end from last spring. I disse...   Dec 7 2010, 06:35 AM
jk76.914   I know. Something had to give. If I focus on mak...   Dec 7 2010, 07:22 AM
Bleyseng   I know. Something had to give. If I focus on ma...   Dec 7 2010, 08:46 AM
realred914   looks like i will will be needing to get my mps cl...   Dec 7 2010, 02:29 PM
jk76.914   looks like i will will be needing to get my mps c...   Dec 7 2010, 08:14 PM
914 shifter   diaphram-less MPS that is properly set up with suc...   Dec 7 2010, 10:01 PM
bandjoey   Yes. I've just read this front to back and it...   Dec 7 2010, 10:40 PM
Bleyseng   if you are running a stock rebuild motor setting t...   Dec 8 2010, 07:13 AM
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