 stainless heat exchanger shell set brand new, here is the story |
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| johannes |
 Mar 10 2010, 10:51 AM
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#21
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Club Porsche 914 France President  Group: Members Posts: 3,084 Joined: 13-January 06 From: France Member No.: 5,409 Region Association: France  |
My opinion, there is a very small market for shells alone. People want bolt-on parts. I wouldn't pay 500 for shells to weld on rusty tubes ...
I also think there is no neet to manufacture 1.7 and 1.8 SSHEs. If you rebuilt your exhaust you can also buy the 2.0 muffler bracket and go for a 2.0 Muffler (original or aftermarket). |
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| Katmanken |
Mar 10 2010, 11:29 AM
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#22
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You haven't seen me if anybody asks... Group: Members Posts: 4,738 Joined: 14-June 03 From: USA Member No.: 819 Region Association: Upper MidWest |
The 1.7- 1.8 heat exchangers are physically different from the 2.0's and you get muffler/heat exhanger misallignment if you mix parts.
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| SirAndy |
Mar 10 2010, 11:30 AM
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#23
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Resident German Group: Admin Posts: 41,612 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(McMark @ Mar 10 2010, 07:46 AM)  QUOTE Funny thing is, when he actually had the chance to sell it, he didn't want to let go ... Or at least that's what we were told. Maybe you have better info than me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) I was there ... And had a chance to talk to the actual guy with the money. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Andy |
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| dr914@autoatlanta.com |
Mar 10 2010, 11:37 AM
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#24
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 7,832 Joined: 3-January 07 From: atlanta georgia Member No.: 7,418 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(johannes @ Mar 10 2010, 09:51 AM) My opinion, there is a very small market for shells alone. People want bolt-on parts. I wouldn't pay 500 for shells to weld on rusty tubes ... I also think there is no neet to manufacture 1.7 and 1.8 SSHEs. If you rebuilt your exhaust you can also buy the 2.0 muffler bracket and go for a 2.0 Muffler (original or aftermarket). I agree except for the concours guys. On an added note I think that the stainless steel tubing was really too thin go get a good seal plus they were noisy. These days with the limited use and high collector value, I think making just steel factory duplicate exchangers would be perfectly sufficient for the market. Dansk has not made them for years but maybe could be persuaded to remake a run. Maybe you could ask them? |
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| johannes |
Mar 10 2010, 12:04 PM
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#25
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Club Porsche 914 France President Group: Members Posts: 3,084 Joined: 13-January 06 From: France Member No.: 5,409 Region Association: France |
QUOTE(dr914@autoatlanta.com @ Mar 10 2010, 09:37 AM) Dansk has not made them for years but maybe could be persuaded to remake a run. Maybe you could ask them? Wouldn't it be cheaper to have them manufactured in the USA ? Those Dansk HE on your catalogue are 1000 $ each !!!!! Euro vs $ won't help ! ... If SSI has the tooling for the shells he could also built them in regular steel. |
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| Tom_T |
Mar 10 2010, 12:54 PM
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#26
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TMI.... Group: Members Posts: 8,318 Joined: 19-March 09 From: Orange, CA Member No.: 10,181 Region Association: Southern California 
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Reality check Y'all ......
I got a very nice set of used 2.0 SSI SS HE's last year on TheSamba for $450 & the current going rate used is $400 - $600+ used DoQ for a pair - and they were at $600 - $800 used before the economy tanked, so expect them to go up again when it recovers. BTW - it has SS shell & tubes but mild steel muffler flanges - so add $40 + welder's charge to weld a pair of Engman's SS flanges & to weld a crack at one of the down-pipe ears, plus XX hours to clean them up with a wire brush (what's your time worth?) ...... get my drift!? IIRC new HE's for the 2.0 was +/- $1000 PER SIDE! So $500 for a new pair of SS HE's complete is NOT realistic - maybe per side,but I doubt it. I'd guess more in the $700 - $1000 range per side complete & all SS would be reasonable at maybe 2x or so what used sets are going for. George - I'd agree that getting SSI's tooling or them to restart is the way to go - even if a large order of 200 is required - or else buying the tooling if you can make another pass at John. I don't know him & his story like a lot of you do, but his SSI HEs were a great product for 914s & they'd be made in the USA - ostensibly with lower shipping & no duty & VAT (+/- 19.5% IIRC - making their $500 actually almost $600 + S&H to the USA) for the Belgium made ones. George - I also agree with the others as to your being the source for the other suppliers - or you could just have SSI make the 200 & sell to all the sources if he doesn't want to give you the exclusive. To the above "subscriber" lists, I'd add: Performance Products/Eckler's Sierra Madre Collection TC's Garage (Vista CA - Tom & Bev Gould) ... & notify just about every shop in the US, Canada & Mexico that works on 914s, as well as all of these 914 affinity websites (here, 914club, clubNARP, PCA's 914 Registry & Regions, etc.) - that they're now available again! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) As an alternative to you're being an exclusive supplier of the "new SSI's" (or Belgium ones) - perhaps the other parts suppliers on the combined lists would go in with you for a piece of the initial 200 - thereby breaking it into 25 or 50 apiece? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) George, have you looked back at your old business records to see how many HE's you'd sold in past years on average, when they were available? I would think that there are probably at least 50 - 100+ per year who either need them due to HE disintegration &/or choose to upgrade in a resto. |
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| markb |
Mar 10 2010, 01:05 PM
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#27
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914less :( Group: Members Posts: 5,449 Joined: 22-January 03 From: Nipomo, CA Member No.: 180 Region Association: Central California
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QUOTE(johannes @ Mar 10 2010, 04:52 AM) Everybody wants 2.0 SSHE. If a set can be sold under 500$ public price, he should go for a world wide subscription plan and manufacture 200 sets that would be good for the 10 next years. Subscriber list... Autoatlanta USA Pelican parts USA Porsche Classic DE Mittelmotor DE 914 Kfz Versand DE Rose Passion FR Arno Wienands NL I also would contact all 914 Porsche clubs in the world... You could add us to that list. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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| Tom_T |
Mar 10 2010, 01:11 PM
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#28
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TMI.... Group: Members Posts: 8,318 Joined: 19-March 09 From: Orange, CA Member No.: 10,181 Region Association: Southern California
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QUOTE(dr914@autoatlanta.com @ Mar 10 2010, 09:37 AM) QUOTE(johannes @ Mar 10 2010, 09:51 AM) My opinion, there is a very small market for shells alone. People want bolt-on parts. I wouldn't pay 500 for shells to weld on rusty tubes ... I also think there is no neet to manufacture 1.7 and 1.8 SSHEs. If you rebuilt your exhaust you can also buy the 2.0 muffler bracket and go for a 2.0 Muffler (original or aftermarket). I agree except for the concours guys. On an added note I think that the stainless steel tubing was really too thin go get a good seal plus they were noisy. These days with the limited use and high collector value, I think making just steel factory duplicate exchangers would be perfectly sufficient for the market. Dansk has not made them for years but maybe could be persuaded to remake a run. Maybe you could ask them? IIRC even our resident CW King Pat Garvey has SS HE's on his beloved 72 "Fritz"! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) However, I'm sure his are 1.7 SS HEs, so you'd want to offer both alignment of 1.7 & 2.0 HE's - although all the tubing could use the larger diameter 2.0 size - as in the prior SSI's (maybe 1.8 & 75-76 2.0 are different too & need separate runs?). So I'd disagree with Johannes on that too, since only a few will want to upgrade/backdate to the 73-74 2.0 HEs & muffler. I also agree with the full SS HE vs. shells - most of us really want/need/prefer bolt on replacement UNITS, & shells will only really appeal to the do-it-yursef crowd. In most cases, that would cut out your market for most commercial shops & dealers using it as a ready replacement for their customers. |
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| SirAndy |
Mar 10 2010, 01:39 PM
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#29
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Resident German Group: Admin Posts: 41,612 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Mar 10 2010, 11:11 AM) However, I'm sure his are 1.7 SS HEs, so you'd want to offer both alignment of 1.7 & 2.0 HE's - although all the tubing could use the larger diameter 2.0 size - as in the prior SSI's (maybe 1.8 & 75-76 2.0 are different too & need separate runs?). So I'd disagree with Johannes on that too, since only a few will want to upgrade/backdate to the 73-74 2.0 HEs & muffler. There were never any SSIs for the 75/76 exhaust system. It's completely different than the earlier style. Any new SSIs would be for 70-74 cars or later cars with backdated exhaust system. I think a simple run of just 2.0L SSIs would be the best approach. Any 1.7/1.8 car can easily be changed over to the 2.0L exhaust design by adding a 2.0L muffler hanger and 2.0L muffler. The biggest advantage is that John at SSI already has all the tooling to do this. If George could get a few of the parts outlets to commit to resell some of these, the cost for 200 sets should be manageable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) Andy |
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| MDG |
Mar 10 2010, 01:42 PM
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#30
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Wolf in wolf's clothing. Group: Members Posts: 8,652 Joined: 3-February 09 From: Toronto Member No.: 10,018 Region Association: None |
What Andy said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif)
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| johannes |
Mar 10 2010, 03:16 PM
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#31
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Club Porsche 914 France President Group: Members Posts: 3,084 Joined: 13-January 06 From: France Member No.: 5,409 Region Association: France |
+1 for Andy
QUOTE Any 1.7/1.8 car can easily be changed over to the 2.0L exhaust design by adding a 2.0L muffler hanger and 2.0L muffler. A 2.0 aftermarket muffler is under $300 and a 2.0 Bracket (hanger) is under $50. |
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| EdwardBlume |
Mar 10 2010, 03:29 PM
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#32
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914 Wizard Group: Members Posts: 12,338 Joined: 2-January 03 From: SLO Member No.: 81 Region Association: Central California
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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) +2 for Andy.
I'm sure SSI has no qualms about making money if they have the chance.. and its a pretty good product. Then again, if its $800-$1000 like Tom T is halucinating.. then the super trick Tangerine exhaust comes more into play... BTW - I got my nearly new SSI 2.0s for $260 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/monkeydance.gif) |
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| dr914@autoatlanta.com |
Mar 10 2010, 03:34 PM
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#33
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 7,832 Joined: 3-January 07 From: atlanta georgia Member No.: 7,418 Region Association: None |
QUOTE BTW - I got my nearly new SSI 2.0s for $260 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/monkeydance.gif) and this is the point. There are plenty available on e bay!!!! Why buy new? QUOTE(RobW @ Mar 10 2010, 02:29 PM) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) +2 for Andy. I'm sure SSI has no qualms about making money if they have the chance.. and its a pretty good product. Then again, if its $800-$1000 like Tom T is halucinating.. then the super trick Tangerine exhaust comes more into play... BTW - I got my nearly new SSI 2.0s for $260 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/monkeydance.gif) |
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| dr914@autoatlanta.com |
Mar 10 2010, 03:50 PM
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#34
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 7,832 Joined: 3-January 07 From: atlanta georgia Member No.: 7,418 Region Association: None |
Well here is the latest! We all know how John always changes his mind, so here is the latest. He made a deal with a guy in Europe to produce 100 sets of mixed heat exchangers and gave him exclusivity for a year!
That means that he is shipping a hundred sets to europe where this guy will send them back to the states as he sells them!!!! I had asked John many many times to make me a package deal but it was always that he would think about it and that it would take 200 sets. Now out of the blue he is called by the European offering him money and he makes a deal on the spur of the moment!!!! Bottom line, we will now have production but at what price. |
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| johannes |
Mar 10 2010, 03:55 PM
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#35
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Club Porsche 914 France President Group: Members Posts: 3,084 Joined: 13-January 06 From: France Member No.: 5,409 Region Association: France |
I am curious. How much Mitt... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) this european dealer will price them ...
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| SirAndy |
Mar 10 2010, 03:58 PM
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#36
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Resident German Group: Admin Posts: 41,612 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(dr914@autoatlanta.com @ Mar 10 2010, 01:34 PM) Why buy new? Because we like new and shiny things! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheer.gif) Funny thing, when Rich (ArtechnikA) did the WCR in Reno (2003?) John gave me a set of brand new 2.0L SSIs still in the box to donate to the parts raffle. During the raffle dinner at the car museum, i ended up winning the same set of SSIs i had brought with me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) They were of no use to me at the time (already had a set on my car), so i traded them with one of the other guys there. Thing is, if they were available brand new today, i'd rather fork out the money and get a new set before buying used ones. But maybe that's just me, i dunno. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) Andy |
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| SirAndy |
Mar 10 2010, 04:02 PM
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#37
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Resident German Group: Admin Posts: 41,612 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(dr914@autoatlanta.com @ Mar 10 2010, 01:50 PM) Well here is the latest! We all know how John always changes his mind, so here is the latest. He made a deal with a guy in Europe to produce 100 sets of mixed heat exchangers and gave him exclusivity for a year! That means that he is shipping a hundred sets to europe where this guy will send them back to the states as he sells them!!!! I had asked John many many times to make me a package deal but it was always that he would think about it and that it would take 200 sets. Now out of the blue he is called by the European offering him money and he makes a deal on the spur of the moment!!!! Bottom line, we will now have production but at what price. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) My guess would be Mittelmotor ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) It's going to be expensive for us here in the US. Shipping over the pond TWICE, a hefty " (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) Andy |
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| dr914@autoatlanta.com |
Mar 10 2010, 04:08 PM
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#38
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 7,832 Joined: 3-January 07 From: atlanta georgia Member No.: 7,418 Region Association: None |
I asked and John said that it was not mittelmotor! I am trying to make a deal to get 50 sets for us here.
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Mar 10 2010, 03:02 PM) QUOTE(dr914@autoatlanta.com @ Mar 10 2010, 01:50 PM) Well here is the latest! We all know how John always changes his mind, so here is the latest. He made a deal with a guy in Europe to produce 100 sets of mixed heat exchangers and gave him exclusivity for a year! That means that he is shipping a hundred sets to europe where this guy will send them back to the states as he sells them!!!! I had asked John many many times to make me a package deal but it was always that he would think about it and that it would take 200 sets. Now out of the blue he is called by the European offering him money and he makes a deal on the spur of the moment!!!! Bottom line, we will now have production but at what price. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) My guess would be Mittelmotor ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) and it is not mittel John said. It's going to be expensive for us here in the US. Shipping over the pond TWICE, a hefty " (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) Andy |
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| johannes |
Mar 10 2010, 04:08 PM
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#39
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Club Porsche 914 France President Group: Members Posts: 3,084 Joined: 13-January 06 From: France Member No.: 5,409 Region Association: France |
QUOTE markup plus the depressing exchange rate is going to kill the pricing for us ... Not for me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
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| MDG |
Mar 10 2010, 05:00 PM
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#40
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Wolf in wolf's clothing. Group: Members Posts: 8,652 Joined: 3-February 09 From: Toronto Member No.: 10,018 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(dr914@autoatlanta.com @ Mar 10 2010, 05:08 PM) I asked and John said that it was not mittelmotor! I am trying to make a deal to get 50 sets for us here. Do the deal - I'll take a set, George. |
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