DE Events and Insurance, What insurance carrier to you use? Options

[flat4tom]

Hello all,

It was my intention all along to take my 914 out to a DE event at Thunderhill Raceway when it was ready. I've finally got the car running well enough to be thinking about this.

What insurance company(s) do you use to insure your street drivable 914 when you take it to a DE track event?

Currently, my other 'classic' cars are insured with Grundy Worldwide...no I haven't contacted them yet but will be. I just wanted to know who other people were using and why?

Thanks for any info. I've never participated in a DE event before so this is all new to me.

Tom
'73 2.0

[sww914]

If you crash your car, you were NOT racing, you were taking a driving course AT a driving facility and you had an instructor in the car at all times.
You were not racing, period. You should be covered. Call your existing insurance company and ask them if you are covered for driver's education events. DO NOT use the words race or racing, ever. I couldn't even get shop insurance until I learned not to say racecar when describing my business.
When I've gone to POC events that's what they told us concerning driving our street cars on the track, don't even mention timing your laps and deny that you were being timed if possible.
Our local PCA rents a track a couple of times a year and they don't allow timing because they can't afford the insurance for the event if there is any timing going on. Some guys still use their own hot lap timers but fortunately the PCA guys can't see very well sometimes.

[ArtechnikA]

You were not racing, period. You should be covered. Call your existing insurance company and ask them if you are covered for driver's education events.

Even more important, actually READ your actual policy - it does not matter a whit what your agent tells you - all that matters is what the policy actually says in writing. You are betting money the insurance company will enforce the strict letter of the policy contract document.

My insurance specifically disclaims all coverage _at_ a racetrack, it doesn't matter what you were doing there, even as a paying spectator for a professional event. Race track - not covered.

Those provisions _may_ be contestable under some circumstances (how about a swap meet in the parking lot of a race track where there are no cars on track?) but expect them to fight you every step of the way.

I do not like this provision in my insurance (Allstate) and I'll be having to change carriers if I ever get serious about DE events again. Your carrier in your state will probably have different provisions. READ the policy document with a fine-tooth comb.

[jhadler]

I'll echo the above comments:

- Never, ever, ever mention the "R" word. Let it slip even once, you're done.

- Read the rules of the event you're participating in carefully. Very carefully. Look for descriptions of the event in the beginning of the rules. If the words "Race" or "Competition" appear, you are probably gonna be denied if you make a claim. And might even be dropped. So exercise caution in this arena.

- Read your policy carefully. Some will exclude "Racing" events. Some will exclude "Timed Competition" events. Some will exclude "Competition" events (yes, that means that even Concours could possibly be excluded depending on the company and the adjuster). And some will exclude any event that takes place on a "permanent racing circuit" or similar language. Some will even exclude any situation that occurs at extra-legal speeds.

I have been involved in a few car-event related claims (once as a claimant, a couple of times as an event official). I've seen it go well, and I've seen it go not-so-well.

I have State Farm. I know for a fact, in writing, that I'm covered at an Autox. I also know that, once at the track, I'm on my own once the timer starts, and that it's my dime if something happens. Driver's Ed events: While I have not tested it personally, I can speak from experience that State Farm fully covered a fellow driver who balled up a Subie STi at a driver's ed event a few years back.

I have a philosophy of track driving... Never take your car onto the track unless you're prepared to walk away from it. Sh*t can happen no matter the level of preparation or experience, and at high speeds, that sh*t usually means deformation of metal. This philosophy has kept my mindset where I can afford it. It also means that I, as a rule, don't drive other people's cars at the track (autox is totally another matter), as I can't afford to buy their cars.

Be cautious, and YMMV...

-Josh2

[john rogers]

I can see a potential heart ache here so the advice I give is (as I was given when I started) do not go onto a race track, even a large stadium like the "Q" in San Diego unless you are ready to write the car off. The chances of you having a problem is somewhat but all the other drivers at a D.E. are generally unknown even if there is an instructor with them. On the other site there was mention of an instructor getting killed while just "following" the car in front when a radiator hose let go. At any rate good luck as this is what 914s were meant for!

[flat4tom]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

The reality is that, yes, I can walk away from my car if something happens to it. What concerns me most is what jhadler said about something breaking and causing an accident. An accident to a much more expensive car than mine, that my car could be involved with.

I don't want to be on the hook if my car, or me, happened to cause an accident to a 100K car someone might have brought that day. Just trying to make sure that my (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif) is covered!

Thx again.
Tom

[ArtechnikA]

Just trying to make sure that my (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif) is covered!

There is event coverage.
As these events are statistically pretty safe, coverage isn't bad - especially compared to the consequence.

Check the Panorama for companies that offer such. I have no personal experience with any of them.

[ME733]

...........Yes well your looking for a "perfect solution" to the possibilities involved in using your car in ANY on track situation......I do not think it exists.....All the previous comments are VALID.....and I also believe you will be required to sign a waver if your car is used on track....and most entry forms, and, attachments , will refer you to regulations you will not like....such as "you race at your own risk"., there is usually event, or track insurance.....but it does not cover anyones CAR if damaged....if you damage someones car on track...to bad for him and you., if it was obviously YOUR fault you can offer to pay for the damage...no one ever does of course. Thats why you will probably get YOU ASS KICKED, to the degree your stupidity, incompetantance, cost of repairs and poor driving- dictates....more than likely your attitude adjustment, and physical imparements will be healed up by the next event........in essence you eighter have a disposable race car.....or a street car.(with insurance)..hope this helps................MURRAY

[mudfoot76]

http://pcahpdeins.locktonaffinity.com/Default.aspx

From what I have personally seen, it is a total crapshoot if your insurance company will cover you for damages at a DE. I know someone who crashed and totaled a fairly new 987 and his insurance company just wrote him a check. I know someone else who balled up his 993 and his insurance indicated the policy language stated no coverage for any damage on any type of closed circuit or road course. He clarified this with his rep to mean no DE, no AX, no drag strips, no nothing.

PCA has a deal with Lockton Affinity (see link above) that allows you to purchase event-specific coverage for DE. If you are worried, then check it out.

[Russ]

You can try J.C Taylor.

http://www.jctaylor.com/

Russell

[Smitty911]

I'm Putting on my Flame Suit Early, so Gentlemen light your matches.

I have to agree that you shouldn't race unless you can afford to completly walk away from your car.

But why lie about the use, you are racing, call it what it is and get Insurance or a Bond. Yes you will have to look around and if no coverage exist, start your own Insurance/Bond Pool. Loyds of London, I'm sure will cover you for whatever event and whatever limits you might want/need.

You have history at each of the tracks with each type of event, so you have satisticial data to draw from. You can use that information to get a policy for yourself or the Group. I would think the SCCA, POC, etc. etc. is large enough to have an umbrella policy that only covers, death or serious injury. That should be covered in the Event Fee for spectators as well as participants.

Racing cost money and Insurance should be part of the cost.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/hide.gif)

Smitty

[carr914]

There has been been some pretty bad advise so far.

I am a 21 Year PCA Instructor, National PCA Instructor # 14

It is not a Crap-shoot if your Regular or Classic Insurance co will take take of you if you have any incident - they will NOT.
You are on a track. I don't care if it's called a Drivers Education, it is a track event, period, end of story.

Now, if you lie to your Ins Co about where it happened, that's your problem. But the only report that will be written up is the Chief Instructors and you don't want that going to your insurance co.

There are options

#1 www.pcahpdeins.locktonaffinity.com / www.racersinsuranceadvantage.com

#2 Don't hit anything