 New Zimmerman Rotors, Is slight warpage on new rotors ok? |
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| rjames |
 Apr 19 2010, 12:31 PM
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#1
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I'm made of metal  Group: Members Posts: 3,932 Joined: 24-July 05 From: Shoreline, WA Member No.: 4,467 Region Association: Pacific Northwest 
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Slight warpage on both my new rear rotors. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) From an old thread I found (that I can't again find now) the conclusion was that new rotors do not need to be turned. However, I notice that after installing the new rear rotors there is slight warpage on both of them. I estimate the warpage to be roughly .004".
Is this a big deal? Should I just run them and hope it isn't noticable when braking? I'm getting ready to bleed the brakes after installing PMB calilpers, new pads, rotors and lines, but I don't want to waste time trying to perfect the feel of the brakes if I'm just going to have to remove the rotors and get them turned anyway. |
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| Eric_Shea |
Apr 19 2010, 12:36 PM
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PMB Performance Group: Admin Posts: 19,275 Joined: 3-September 03 From: Salt Lake City, UT Member No.: 1,110 Region Association: Rocky Mountains  |
Did you check the hubs for runout? You may have that much before you even install the rotors.
I'm not in front of my manuals but, there's an acceptable runout spec. .004" seems OK from where I'm sitting but, not a real answer right now. |
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| dr914@autoatlanta.com |
Apr 19 2010, 12:44 PM
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#3
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 7,857 Joined: 3-January 07 From: atlanta georgia Member No.: 7,418 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Eric_Shea @ Apr 19 2010, 11:36 AM)  Did you check the hubs for runout? You may have that much before you even install the rotors. I'm not in front of my manuals but, there's an acceptable runout spec. .004" seems OK from where I'm sitting but, not a real answer right now. yes definitely check the hubs, maybe not the runout but the mating surface. May want to sand the rust off first and make sure it is firmly mated with the two rotor screws |
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| ericread |
Apr 19 2010, 12:51 PM
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The Viper Blue 914 Group: Members Posts: 2,177 Joined: 7-December 07 From: Irvine, CA (The OC) Member No.: 8,432 Region Association: Southern California |
Doesn't Eric Shea sell the pre-warped brake pads so they'll fit properly?
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| rjames |
Apr 19 2010, 12:56 PM
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#5
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I'm made of metal Group: Members Posts: 3,932 Joined: 24-July 05 From: Shoreline, WA Member No.: 4,467 Region Association: Pacific Northwest
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QUOTE(dr914@autoatlanta.com @ Apr 19 2010, 11:44 AM) QUOTE(Eric_Shea @ Apr 19 2010, 11:36 AM) Did you check the hubs for runout? You may have that much before you even install the rotors. I'm not in front of my manuals but, there's an acceptable runout spec. .004" seems OK from where I'm sitting but, not a real answer right now. yes definitely check the hubs, maybe not the runout but the mating surface. May want to sand the rust off first and make sure it is firmly mated with the two rotor screws I did not check the hubs for runout- (how does one do that, btw?) but did sand them both down to nice shiny bare metal before mounting the rotors. That being said, there wasn't much rust to remove. |
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| rjames |
Apr 19 2010, 12:56 PM
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#6
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I'm made of metal Group: Members Posts: 3,932 Joined: 24-July 05 From: Shoreline, WA Member No.: 4,467 Region Association: Pacific Northwest
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QUOTE(ericread @ Apr 19 2010, 11:51 AM) Doesn't Eric Shea sell the pre-warped brake pads so they'll fit properly? I also heard that he will run alongside your car and grab the wheel with his bare hands to stop the care from moving if need be. |
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| PeeGreen 914 |
Apr 19 2010, 01:03 PM
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#7
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Just when you think you're done...wait, there is more..lol Group: Members Posts: 10,219 Joined: 21-September 06 From: Seattle, WA... actually Everett Member No.: 6,884 Region Association: Pacific Northwest
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I have had rotors come to the shop needing to be turned but Zims should not need to be turned. They "should" be true.
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| underthetire |
Apr 19 2010, 01:39 PM
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#8
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,062 Joined: 7-October 08 From: Brentwood Member No.: 9,623 Region Association: Northern California |
considering the .006 venting clearance, sounds excessive to me.
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| Eric_Shea |
Apr 19 2010, 04:14 PM
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#9
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PMB Performance Group: Admin Posts: 19,275 Joined: 3-September 03 From: Salt Lake City, UT Member No.: 1,110 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
QUOTE considering the .006 venting clearance, sounds excessive to me. You always adjust the venting clearance on the high side of the runout. There will always be runout. .004" is a thick piece of paper. Now... the running along side the car thing is an Internet myth. I did it "once" but I doubt it could be repeated. Plus... it was a very good customer. Reminds me of this: (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net-1110-1271715251.1.jpg) |
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| SirAndy |
Apr 19 2010, 04:31 PM
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#10
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Resident German Group: Admin Posts: 41,638 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(Eric_Shea @ Apr 19 2010, 03:14 PM) Reminds me of this: (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net-1110-1271715251.1.jpg) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) Anyone remember the video of the guys that were going to do burnouts to get rid of their old tires and burnt up the clutch instead? Gawd, there's some funny stuff out there ... |
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| ConeDodger |
Apr 19 2010, 04:40 PM
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#11
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Apex killer! Group: Members Posts: 23,587 Joined: 31-December 04 From: Tahoe Area Member No.: 3,380 Region Association: Northern California
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QUOTE(SirAndy @ Apr 19 2010, 02:31 PM) QUOTE(Eric_Shea @ Apr 19 2010, 03:14 PM) Reminds me of this: (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net-1110-1271715251.1.jpg) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) Anyone remember the video of the guys that were going to do burnouts to get rid of their old tires and burnt up the clutch instead? Gawd, there's some funny stuff out there ... Yup! Late Corvette. Must have had the traction control still on... Idjut! |
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| rjames |
Apr 19 2010, 07:01 PM
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#12
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I'm made of metal Group: Members Posts: 3,932 Joined: 24-July 05 From: Shoreline, WA Member No.: 4,467 Region Association: Pacific Northwest
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QUOTE You always adjust the venting clearance on the high side of the runout. There will always be runout. .004" is a thick piece of paper. I just have a feeling that thick piece of paper or not, I'll feel it in the pedal. Weird thing is that after I adjusted the venting clearance I could have sworn I spun the rotors and there was no rubbing on the pads- for either side of the car. 3 days later I have rubbing on both sides of the car. On the passenger side both the inner and outer pads rub at different points on the rotor! Fuch. Maybe I should remove the rotors and check the hubs, or at least rotate the rotors 180 degrees on the hubs to see if it makes a difference. If the hubs are off are there shims that can be used to correct this? |
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| PRS914-6 |
Apr 19 2010, 07:06 PM
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#13
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Excellence Magazine Project 914 3.6 Group: Retired Members Posts: 1,278 Joined: 20-May 06 From: Central California Member No.: 6,031 Region Association: None |
The normal spec for new or machined rotors is typically less than .002. That said lots get installed with more. I do .003 or less. That maximizes braking while minimizing shudder while braking and soft pedals.
A dial indicator on a hub is appropriate and if bad.....check is to see if the wheel bearings were installed improperly on the fronts if it happens. See the last comments I made on This thread |
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| rjames |
Apr 19 2010, 10:23 PM
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#14
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I'm made of metal Group: Members Posts: 3,932 Joined: 24-July 05 From: Shoreline, WA Member No.: 4,467 Region Association: Pacific Northwest
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QUOTE(PRS914-6 @ Apr 19 2010, 06:06 PM) The normal spec for new or machined rotors is typically less than .002. That said lots get installed with more. I do .003 or less. That maximizes braking while minimizing shudder while braking and soft pedals. A dial indicator on a hub is appropriate and if bad.....check is to see if the wheel bearings were installed improperly on the fronts if it happens. See the last comments I made on This thread That's what I was afraid of. My guestimate as far as how much warpage there is based on a feeler gauge, not by using a dial indicator (don't have one). I set the rear clearance to .004, and then in a spot on the rotor the pad rubs. That tells me that it's roughly warped by .004", or the hub is not true. Additionally, it is the rear rotors I'm talking about. Not the fronts- at least as far as I know. I haven't checked them yet. So can shims be used if need be on the rears? If the hub is bad... aw hell. The work day was bad enough- I don't think I will want to hear the answer to this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) |
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| PRS914-6 |
Apr 19 2010, 10:50 PM
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#15
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Excellence Magazine Project 914 3.6 Group: Retired Members Posts: 1,278 Joined: 20-May 06 From: Central California Member No.: 6,031 Region Association: None |
Skip the shims. Bad idea. Your idea to rotate the rotors 180 is worth checking. Are you using a dial indicator?
I like to knock the studs out and file the dings out of the flanges but that may not be possible assembled. Years worth of tire monkeys using impact wrenches can warp the face of the flange. |
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| ME733 |
Apr 20 2010, 07:39 AM
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 842 Joined: 25-June 08 From: Atlanta Ga. Member No.: 9,209 Region Association: South East States |
.........IMO.....It,s a waste of time AND money to turn brand new rotors...I know friends who did this......IF a rotor has a minor amount of distorion...003ths inch seems to be a industry standard(for runout)....just use it for awhile, get it very hot many times, over many miles. ensure you have "heat sunk".."heat sink" the rotors, ..BEFORE you have them turned...that way all the warpage has taken place... as a note of intrest: no one I know had any success with puting them in an oven to speed up the process.(heat sinking)..AND the O.E.M. rotors are always made of better material, and warp less than any aftermarket rotor....I.M.O.
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| underthetire |
Apr 20 2010, 08:33 AM
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#17
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,062 Joined: 7-October 08 From: Brentwood Member No.: 9,623 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(Eric_Shea @ Apr 19 2010, 03:14 PM) QUOTE considering the .006 venting clearance, sounds excessive to me. You always adjust the venting clearance on the high side of the runout. There will always be runout. .004" is a thick piece of paper. Now... the running along side the car thing is an Internet myth. I did it "once" but I doubt it could be repeated. Plus... it was a very good customer. Reminds me of this: (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net-1110-1271715251.1.jpg) Very thick paper! It's actually more like 2 sheets. In my trade, .004 is a HUGE amount. Thats why I can't do wood working. Just too sloppy for me. |
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| Eric_Shea |
Apr 20 2010, 12:24 PM
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#18
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PMB Performance Group: Admin Posts: 19,275 Joined: 3-September 03 From: Salt Lake City, UT Member No.: 1,110 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
I'm finally at the factory manuals:
Lateral "Wobble" (find it funny but appropriate they call it wobble) = .0008" or 0.2mm Couple of things I would check: 1. Are the sub axles torqued to spec.? Your measurements seemed to change after driving the car is why I ask. Something is moving. 2. Can you get a dial gauge on the hub? That would be best as you could eliminate it from the equation. 3. Dial gauge on the rotor (if the hub is in spec.) |
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| PRS914-6 |
Apr 20 2010, 12:37 PM
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#19
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Excellence Magazine Project 914 3.6 Group: Retired Members Posts: 1,278 Joined: 20-May 06 From: Central California Member No.: 6,031 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Eric_Shea @ Apr 20 2010, 10:24 AM) I'm finally at the factory manuals: Lateral "Wobble" (find it funny but appropriate they call it wobble) = .0008" or 0.2mm Couple of things I would check: 1. Are the sub axles torqued to spec.? Your measurements seemed to change after driving the car is why I ask. Something is moving. 2. Can you get a dial gauge on the hub? That would be best as you could eliminate it from the equation. 3. Dial gauge on the rotor (if the hub is in spec.) Eric, you must mean .008 or .2mm/.0008 or .02mm If its .008 I would suspect that is a "in service maximum" and not new installation. You would feel .008 in the pedal and the steering wheel when the brakes were applied. .0008 tolerance would seem impossible to obtain from the average mechanic, production machines and old cars.... |
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| Eric_Shea |
Apr 20 2010, 03:15 PM
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#20
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PMB Performance Group: Admin Posts: 19,275 Joined: 3-September 03 From: Salt Lake City, UT Member No.: 1,110 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
Check the factory manual... I was just parroting from that.
I thought I wrote it down correctly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) I definately could have written it down wrong. With the 50's approaching I'm moving to the 2.00 mag readers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I agree... that's a thick hair (or "a very thick hair!") (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol3.gif) But what it is telling me is, they don't like to see .004" I'm away from the office computer that has the manuals on it. Someone here has to have them -or- I'll weigh in with confirmation later. |
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