day dreaming out loud, building a small six? Options

[VaccaRabite]

Every now and again, I get it in my head to build a small 6 for my 914. Either a 2.2 or a 2.4. Either engine would be built up to the "S" type specs, though probably carburated as I don't want to deal with MFI, and at this point have a pretty good understanding of how IDF style carbs work.

While driving my 914, I tend to drive it differently then I do my daily, keeping the engine revved up. This is NOT how I thought I would drive it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
The idea of a small bore high revving engine really tickles something in me.

Could anyone here breakdown the costs involved with taking a tired old 2.2T or 2.4T motor and building it out to S level to have a peaky but potent 190ish HP? I would be doing all the labor, save machine work, myself.

I am not as concerned with the costs of the oil tank, engine mounts, etc. I know about what that stuff all costs to get, and where to go about finding them. I am more interested in just the parts and costs associated with rebuilding the small bored 6 plants.

This would be a build taht I might start collecting parts for now, but would not start for probably a year or longer as I DO want to have my m715 running at some point in my lifetime. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) I am putting my 914 on the same restriction that I had the truck on. No major changes to the 914 now until the truck is road worthy.

Zach

[tradisrad]

yeah, me too I would love to see a decent list. I cant get the idea of a 6 out of my head! And Zach I am ahead of you as I've got the mount welded in and the oil tank holes cut.
One thing that I have heard/read is that the small 6's may not need a front oil cooler. Can this be confirmed? Will that change as HP goes up?

[jasons]

Go to PP to the engine rebuild section. Add all the parts you think you would need.

Then go to Competition Engineering and add up your machine work
http://www.competitioneng.com/Catalog.htm

Then add in cost of JE/pistons cyls and reground cams

Next add 20% for what you didn't account for.

Finally go to your favorite throne and proceed to crap bricks.

[type47]

I'll join this bandwagon! I already have a 69T motor that came with the orange car and have been collecting parts. I'd do a 2.2E (I think) for my style of driving with modern digital FI system. Zach, you should talk to MikeSpraggi at Matt's get together, he's just finished a -6 for his race car so you could pick his brains on your build ideas.

[Phoenix-MN]

Every now and again, I get it in my head to build a small 6 for my 914. Either a 2.2 or a 2.4. Either engine would be built up to the "S" type specs, though probably carburated as I don't want to deal with MFI, and at this point have a pretty good understanding of how IDF style carbs work.

While driving my 914, I tend to drive it differently then I do my daily, keeping the engine revved up. This is NOT how I thought I would drive it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
The idea of a small bore high revving engine really tickles something in me.

Could anyone here breakdown the costs involved with taking a tired old 2.2T or 2.4T motor and building it out to S level to have a peaky but potent 190ish HP? I would be doing all the labor, save machine work, myself.

I am not as concerned with the costs of the oil tank, engine mounts, etc. I know about what that stuff all costs to get, and where to go about finding them. I am more interested in just the parts and costs associated with rebuilding the small bored 6 plants.

This would be a build taht I might start collecting parts for now, but would not start for probably a year or longer as I DO want to have my m715 running at some point in my lifetime. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) I am putting my 914 on the same restriction that I had the truck on. No major changes to the 914 now until the truck is road worthy.

Zach

I have such an engine in my 911. Short stroke 2.2T crank, 2.7 pistons and jugs (ends up as a 2.5L), Solex Cam grind (sort of a comprimise between an 'E' and 'S') with weber carbs. Very streetable, not peaky, runs well on pump gas and puts "miles of Smiles" on your face (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I did this engine about 15 years ago so todays costs wouldn't apply but I spent about $6k on it then.

[BK911]

2000 Complete 2.2T engine
500 2.4 crank and rods
300 E cams
??? machine work, gaskets, bearings, etc...

This will give you a high compression 2.4E engine. The normal 2.4E engine is much more streetable than an S spec engine and actually quicker from 0 - 60. AWESOME engine that is very friendly from idle to redline.

And these engines will run all day without an external oil cooler.

[Root_Werks]

Get a 2.7, put a 2.2 crank in it. 2.5, very fun and very rev happy little engines.

[BK911]

Also, my first Porsche was a 2.2T Targa. The engine was high mileage and VERY tired. But, it was still a VERY fun engine in that little car. I would imagine it would be even better in a lighter mid engined car. So what I would do:

Put in a stock 2.2T engine. Do not rebuild, find one with decent leak down numbers. Spend the money on conversion parts. A couple of years down the road drop the engine and rebuild to E specs.

[VaccaRabite]

Also, my first Porsche was a 2.2T Targa. The engine was high mileage and VERY tired. But, it was still a VERY fun engine in that little car. I would imagine it would be even better in a lighter mid engined car. So what I would do:

Put in a stock 2.2T engine. Do not rebuild, find one with decent leak down numbers. Spend the money on conversion parts. A couple of years down the road drop the engine and rebuild to E specs.

My car currently has a brand fresh 2056 that I built last year in it. I'd not get much of a boost from the 2.2T over my 2056. Not enough to make it worth getting an oil tank, mounting plates, etc.

I like my 2056. BUt I also like building stuff. So my next project after the jeep will be another engine for my 914. Either a six or a bigger 4.

Mainly, I just want to build more. :-) Putting it in stock would be contrary to the overall goal. :-)

Zach

[IronHillRestorations]

IIRC the way to go is with a 2.4S engine, with a 2.2S crankshaft and E cams.

The stock 2.4's are good but they are lower compression. Shoot you could just about turbo a 2.4T engine, the compression is so low.

[realred914]

i would suspect gas milage would suffer with a six. i guess to make it worth the cost, there would have to be a significatn power increase for me anyway, i got a V6 231 cu in motor (3.8 liter) in my 914 it is quick, sucks gas, but it is fun, but mpg is too bad for a daily ride for me. also a lot more noise! but heck it is fun!!!!!
i would think with all the conversion costs needed, regardless of six engine size, i'd tend to go for the biggest motor, more bang for the effort I think.

how is the 2056 motor, I plan to have one in my ohter 914 soon with stock D-jet

have fun in you six search!!!

[gandalf_025]

Do the 2.7 case and 2 liter crank, OR
Find an early Aluminum Case and cut it for 2.7 Pistons.. 2 liter crank.. go for the JE pistons and while it is apart, cut the heads for the second set of spark plugs. Solex or S cams and then, rev the hell out of it. Amazing motor.. Fun, Fast and nothing like the sound of it.
You can plug the second set of spark plug holes till you put together the twin plug ignition at a later date if necessary and you will be glad you did it already since it will be cheaper to do while it is already apart.

just my 2 Cents Worth

[VaccaRabite]

how is the 2056 motor, I plan to have one in my ohter 914 soon with stock D-jet

Mine is carbed. It is GREAT. About 120Hp at the crank I'd guess. Second and third gear will push you back into your seat, fourth is for cruising and uphill on the highway. Fifth is for highway cruising so long as it is flat or downhill. The engine is spinning too slow to stay cool in 5th on a long uphill freeway run.

While I was building my car, another member here described the 2056 as a great 3 gear motor (1, 2, 3). He was dead on correct. It seems to be a perfect motor for backroads. But climbing out of MD on the freeway builds heat fast. To be honest, I could drive this motor for a long time and be perfectly happy. But I am one of those weirdos that always built the model airplanes but never flew them. The building was the fun part.

So, I want to build another motor. After I get it built I will sell the 2056 to recoup some of my costs. there are a lot of nice parts in this motor. Ceramic lifters? Yes please!

Expect to need an oil cooler for the 2056. You won't have to put it in the nose, but you will probably need one.

Zach

[VaccaRabite]

If I used a 2.7 case and the 2.0 crank to make a 2.5, would I be able to use CIS instead of carburators?

I don't want to deal with MFI, but I would like to learn CIS.

Zach

[MrKona]

Zach,

If you haven't yet, buy Wayne Demsey's book.

It details different 911 engine configurations, parts, and machine costs. This book will give you hours of good armchair dreaming (prepping (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )time.

[plas76targa]

Zach - I have Wayne's book. Your welcome to borrow it.

Funny you should metion changign over to a six. I was dreaming the same thing looking at my car the other day. Maybe i'll just buy your 2056 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[John]

In my opinion, the costs associated with rebuilding a 911 engine are similar no matter what displacement is. Granted some of the piston and cylinder sets are more money than others, but pricing to rebuild will be similar.

If it was me (and sometimes it is) I would start with the latest case you can get. I really like the 3.2's. I also like to keep them stock. More than enough power and longevity for a street car (or for that matter a lot of power for a DE car).

I also prefer the Motronic to any CIS.

just my $0.02

[Mark Henry]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
Been down this road of thought, it doesn't matter what six you build, they all cost about the same.
If you can find a good running used small six then it might be worth it, otherwise you will be kicking yourself because you could have built a bigger engine for close to the same coin.

[carr914]

I would have to dig out receipts from some of my engine builds, but here are some estimates

Core engine - $500 - $1,500
However, if you really want to do it right, buy a early Sand-Cast Aluminum case, they are about $1200 - $2,000

Machine work - Shuffle pins, Oil Mods, enlarging spigots for bigger cylinders, honing the case, line-bore, case savers - $2000

J-E Pistons - $1,200

Mahle Cylinders - $500

Rings - $150 - $300

Bearings - $225

Cams - $500+

Rod Bolts - $200

Valves - $450

Racing Valve Springs - $200

Head Work - $300-$400

Gasket Set - $200

Cam Chains & Rails - $200

Oil Return Tubes - $50

Oil Pump - $200-$300

SparkPlugs - $75

Plug Wire set - $200

Ignition $1,000 - $2500

Used Webers - $1,000 - $2000

Webers Rebuild - $1,000

PMO Manifolds - $300

Assorted Hardware - $150

Lower Turbo Valve Covers & Machining to clear the Susp Ear - $250

And your labor.

Then you will still need a Six Mount, Oil Tank, Exhaust, etc.

My Motor in the Classifieds = Priceless ($20K)

Attached is an estimate sheet from 6-8 years ago

[ArtechnikA]

If I used a 2.7 case and the 2.0 crank to make a 2.5, would I be able to use CIS instead of carburaetors?
I don't want to deal with MFI, but I would like to learn CIS.

CIS doesn't care much about displacement.
What it cares about is valve overlap.

Porsche ran CIS and the very mild cams it requires because they had to meet emissions.

You may be able to run a 964 cam profile with CIS but that's about as extreme as you can go. I donno why you'd want to go to all this work and expense just to kneecap the performance by using an antique injection system.

You want to learn CIS - get a mid-80's VW like a Jetta GLI or a GTI.

Unless I had some reason to go period-correct (i.e. concours or vintage race classification) I couldn't see a reason to consider CIS.

And yes - plus or minus a little - cost is not a factor of displacement.

The cast aluminum cases would be desirable if you were making a turbo or race motor, but a 7R with the Competition Engineering work is fine for a street motor IMO. (There's a machine work needed to make a 2,0 aluminum case work with bigger bores, and it still needs the intermediate shaft bearings cut, the scavenge mod, and piston squirters installed, so it's no free lunch.)

I think I were going to build up an engine (aside from the period-correct 2,8RSR in my plans...) it'd be based on an SC. Bulletproof aluminum case, many plentiful parts. It may not rev like a short-stroke engine but there's a limit to the appeal of going zoom! Zoom! ZOOM!! in the parking lot...