Good AX tires, VAlue ? |
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Good AX tires, VAlue ? |
sixaddict |
Sep 20 2010, 02:32 PM
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#1
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 799 Joined: 22-January 09 From: Panama City Beach, FL Member No.: 9,961 Region Association: South East States |
Need some AX gumballs ......Could go 15 or 16 but prefer 15.
Flared six car so 225 50 or 245 for rear . Seems 205 55 or or 215 55 for front ....but looking for input ( A6 or C71) and good source ...Looking for used if possible but not used up. Thanks Terry. |
Randal |
Sep 20 2010, 02:44 PM
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#2
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 4,446 Joined: 29-May 03 From: Los Altos, CA Member No.: 750 |
For used slicks, especially cantilevered: JOHN BERGET TIRES THE OFFICIAL TIRE SOURCE FOR: FORMULAPRORACINGSERIES GOODYEAR - AVON - YOKOHAMA HOOSIER - DUNLOP All the top brands for less. Full rubber only 2 heat cycles. Formula Ford Formula Continental 262 -740- 0180 Great guy and most reasonable around for used racing tires. |
J P Stein |
Sep 21 2010, 08:42 PM
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#3
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Irrelevant old fart Group: Members Posts: 8,797 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Vancouver, WA Member No.: 45 Region Association: None |
Used tires are tricky. Unless you have something to compare then to, you have no way of knowing if they are shit. I used to have quite a collection of heat cycled out tires That looked wonderful. You wouldn't know that unless you had mounted & ran them plus had something to compare them against. This brings up another problem. Guys who know better than I say you can't learn to properly drive good tires on shot ones. These guys have more money spend on tires than I...but there it is. I did learn that new tires are worth about a second & a half over cycled out tires........1.5 sec is a life time at AX.
If your just starting out in AX you may as well wear out street tires. If your past that, Kumho 710s are cheaper than Hoosiers, last longer, but are a touch slower. |
sixaddict |
Sep 22 2010, 01:07 PM
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#4
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 799 Joined: 22-January 09 From: Panama City Beach, FL Member No.: 9,961 Region Association: South East States |
Words of wisdom ! If you want fast you pay...I get it ...
THX Used tires are tricky. Unless you have something to compare then to, you have no way of knowing if they are shit. I used to have quite a collection of heat cycled out tires That looked wonderful. You wouldn't know that unless you had mounted & ran them plus had something to compare them against. This brings up another problem. Guys who know better than I say you can't learn to properly drive good tires on shot ones. These guys have more money spend on tires than I...but there it is. I did learn that new tires are worth about a second & a half over cycled out tires........1.5 sec is a life time at AX. If your just starting out in AX you may as well wear out street tires. If your past that, Kumho 710s are cheaper than Hoosiers, last longer, but are a touch slower. |
sean_v8_914 |
Sep 22 2010, 02:50 PM
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#5
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Chingon 601 Group: Members Posts: 4,011 Joined: 1-February 05 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,541 |
JP and Brit schooled me. I went down the path on my own. everything he says is spot on. Hell, I even tried various marinades (traction formula)
Nitto NT-01 or R-888s are slower than A6 or V710s but last evn longer. they are better than street performance tires in order: new slicks used slicks (maybe slower than A6) A6 V710 NT-01 falkin azinis RT 615 BFG XX i cant remember model PS. why bother with skinny little 205s on a flaired car? |
Randal |
Sep 27 2010, 04:32 PM
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#6
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 4,446 Joined: 29-May 03 From: Los Altos, CA Member No.: 750 |
Used tires are tricky. Unless you have something to compare then to, you have no way of knowing if they are shit. I used to have quite a collection of heat cycled out tires That looked wonderful. You wouldn't know that unless you had mounted & ran them plus had something to compare them against. This brings up another problem. Guys who know better than I say you can't learn to properly drive good tires on shot ones. These guys have more money spend on tires than I...but there it is. I did learn that new tires are worth about a second & a half over cycled out tires........1.5 sec is a life time at AX. If your just starting out in AX you may as well wear out street tires. If your past that, Kumho 710s are cheaper than Hoosiers, last longer, but are a touch slower. I agree with JP on new tires; they are clearly worth time on the autox course. On the other hand if your working on a tight budget Mr. John B. can get you some good tires. The cost saving difference is more than half, but do the new tire thing if your budget is there. |
grantsfo |
Sep 30 2010, 03:30 PM
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#7
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Arrrrhhhh! Group: Members Posts: 4,327 Joined: 16-March 03 Member No.: 433 Region Association: None |
Most AX rules put clear class defintions around 3 types of tires. Street tires, DOT R tires and race slicks.
Each tire class has its pluses and minues. I'll outline basics of each one from my expereince. Streets Street tires are going to typically be most durable, most resistant to flat spotting and not require extreme alignment settings to maximize their performance in autocross. A new breed of street tires emerged about 5 years ago that come close to performance of DOT R tires but still cant meet top running DOT R tires like Hoosier. The Dunlop Direnzia Star Spec, Yokohama Advan A008, Falken Azenis Sport 615, Bridgestone RE11 all are top notch AX street tires. I'm running a set of the Yokohamas and have been blown away by their dry grip! Big benefits? You can drive these on the street and drive to the event without changing wheels! Minuses? You wont stick quite as well as DOT R clad cars but will be darn close! SOrt of fun to drive to event and beat race slick clad cars with your street car! DOT R DOT R tires have a wide range of options. From treaded tires that can pass for street tires to pure slicks that are designed for AX only. Treaded DOT's such as Toyo 888, Toyo RA1, Nitto NT01 or Michelin are better suited for track driving but will be slightly better than sticky street tires mentioned above in terms of grip. The class leader in AX slicks is Hoosier with very sticky slick tread. Kuhmo 710 is also a slick but is just a hair off Hoosier in terms of grip. Things to know about Hoosier, they wear quickly (usually good for 50 to 60 AX runs) they require signficant amounts of negative camber (min of about -3) to get optimum performance and they are expensive! If youre just out for fun I'd reccomend treaded DOT R tire like Toyo as a tire that will provide higher levels of grip yet last a long time and it will do OK with street alignment. Pluses better stick than street tires, less expensive than race slicks, more punture resistant than race slicks. Minus - you really cant drive the extreme DOT R tires on the street. Race Slicks. Most slicks come in road race compounds now. This means you need to get tires warm before they really start sticking. You have to determine if you want radial or bias plys. Radials will want lots of negative camber while bias plys can run pretty well with typical street alignment settings. There are a few soft compounds left. Good Year R250 is soft enough for AX but will suffer on cold days. Hoosier R35 compounds are typically sofest race tire you can practically find from Hoosier. Race slicks are more prone to flat spotting, puntures and they also tend to heat cycle a little more quickly. So you lose ultimate grip far before they are ready to wear out. Also know that autocross rules with most sanctioning bodies heavily penalize race slick clad cars. SCCA you immediately go to Prepared class if you have slicks. Most PCA classing schemes punish you as well. You can get used race slicks however you can get all the other tires used as well. Used race tires can be a mixed bag. Some used race tires have wear patterns set by original user that sometimes lead to early wear out. Also know that your running on tires that have already been heat cycled a couple times usually at a track where tire truly gets hot so grip can be impacted. Still will grip far better than most street tires however on colder days they will be slipping and sliding. Finding used tires in same size consistently can be tough too. John B ran out of cantilevers a couple times past couple seasons. Again if you are just out for fun used cantilever slicks in 23x9x15 are a real bargin if they still have most of their tread. Almost worth buying a set of wheels if you dont have 15x7's around. Once you decide on a catagory then size and application start dictating what you have to chose from. This post has been edited by grantsfo: Sep 30 2010, 03:41 PM |
sixaddict |
Sep 30 2010, 04:34 PM
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#8
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 799 Joined: 22-January 09 From: Panama City Beach, FL Member No.: 9,961 Region Association: South East States |
Thanks !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good read
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sean_v8_914 |
Oct 1 2010, 07:35 AM
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#9
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Chingon 601 Group: Members Posts: 4,011 Joined: 1-February 05 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,541 |
some painful truth described above. I thought i knew somethign but i keep learning.
John B and canteleiver slicks changes the whole game for us. it was a different level of commitment. NOT A BOLT ON AND GO. they are huge under a 914. almost like a 245. they were tricky to stuff under teh fenders even with bontempi rear flairs. offset must be spot-on to clear the trailing arm and the fender. we got tires from JP and Brit...and a few sets from John b. each set was different grip-wise. the last set of used cantis was less grippy than new nt-01. best bang for teh AX buck IMO was the Falkin Azenis rt-615. drive em to work and 12 AX events. they lasted all year. nt-01 was great value also. lasted almost a full season. drive them to the track but not to work every day best grip without breaking the bank I think would be V 710s warning: grip is highly addictive hey Grant: how many laps did you get out of those maga sticky Avons? they felt like you could stick the car to a wall like a post it note |
brilliantrot |
Oct 3 2010, 02:06 AM
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 125 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Costa Mesa Ca. Member No.: 7,699 |
I believe the consensus on the Avons was that they fell off a little after ~35 runs give or take a few. Still tons of rubber left and plenty of grip but just not the super hero levels of a new set. Very similar to A6 Hoosiers in this respect though I still think that even after the AVONs go off a little they are still faster than a new A6. On my 911 A6s are really really good for 30 runs and then fall down to just really good and are corded before you get to run 60, 911s eat tires.
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sean_v8_914 |
Oct 3 2010, 11:04 AM
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#11
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Chingon 601 Group: Members Posts: 4,011 Joined: 1-February 05 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,541 |
...just did the math $ per lap
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brilliantrot |
Oct 3 2010, 05:09 PM
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 125 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Costa Mesa Ca. Member No.: 7,699 |
"Speed cost money, how fast do you want to spend?" If you are running A6s or better and your competition isn't, you just won.
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sean_v8_914 |
Oct 3 2010, 05:14 PM
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#13
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Chingon 601 Group: Members Posts: 4,011 Joined: 1-February 05 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,541 |
yup. we could start a new religion for racers...the church of teh holy grip
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grantsfo |
Oct 4 2010, 09:37 AM
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#14
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Arrrrhhhh! Group: Members Posts: 4,327 Joined: 16-March 03 Member No.: 433 Region Association: None |
I dont mention Avon A15 compounds because I dont want to put any one in the poor house. Their grip on cold days is addictive and will give you a clear advantage but they will take food off your family's table. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/351.gif)
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sean_v8_914 |
Oct 4 2010, 11:40 AM
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#15
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Chingon 601 Group: Members Posts: 4,011 Joined: 1-February 05 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,541 |
touching them was my first mistake. I think crack would be cheaper and less adictive. I hope no one ever lets me drive on some...bring on the top ramin
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brilliantrot |
Oct 4 2010, 02:58 PM
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 125 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Costa Mesa Ca. Member No.: 7,699 |
Ya Sean I recommend you don't try them. A week after driving Grant's car on the Avons for the first time, I had an AX in the 911 on sticker A6s and I couldn't get over thinking that they felt terrible and not very sticky (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)
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sean_v8_914 |
Oct 4 2010, 04:31 PM
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#17
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Chingon 601 Group: Members Posts: 4,011 Joined: 1-February 05 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,541 |
...so used r-250 are out of the question for you? what have you been driving lately?
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brilliantrot |
Oct 5 2010, 01:42 AM
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 125 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Costa Mesa Ca. Member No.: 7,699 |
I have very little experience with the cantilevers as I only ran some super old ones on the 914 once and some old one Grant had on the Boxster but neither were remotely impressive so considering the required alignments for them that preclude easily changing to radials, I abandoned the idea of using them.
I run the NT-01s for practice and the A6s for timed (been running this set up for the last 2 years between the 914 and now the 911). Seems good enough for now as the 911 is always well in to the top 10 overall and 1st in BRI even when the A6s are well past their peak. Running the full AX series plus a DE or 2 I put my tire budget at $2k a year which isn't too bad all things considered for ~2.5 sets of tires (both sets of tires seem to last 3/4 of the season before cording). The only issue I have it that the 911 has no problem overheating the skinny little 205s I have to run for fender clearance reasons on warm days. Spraying them down with water is effective but a pain in the butt if you don't have a pit crew. |
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