Let's have a discussion about type IV bearing Options

[rick 918-S]

I know there has been talk lately about the lack of availability of bearing.

This could be the end all of our cars. Can't get hard parts, can't fix the aging engines. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) This is not acceptable.

What is the problem? Don't these engines have the same crank shafts and blocks as VW busses? There is like a billion of those arond the world.

Is there only one maker of these?

Anyone ever thought about approching a manufacturer about producing these?

How about a group buy or forming a sourcing committee to pursue manufacturers other than the one that currently stopped making the bearings?

There bearings people not plutonium.

[Gint]

We're talking about Type IV main bearings I assume?

[SLITS]

According to the High Priest of Birdland .... bearings will be available in January ....

[rick 918-S]

Yes, Sorry I'll change the title. Ron, can you expand on that? What do you know about sources and why they dried up in the first place?

All this is likely in several threads, just trying to get it all in one place.

[SLITS]

To late Rick ... the King has already posted his cornering of the market.

My source is Glenn Sager of Pelican Parts. We had the discussion yesterday.

Why they dried up?.... they just didn't get made as far as I can surmise maybe due to low market demand. Remember, we are just a pimple on the automotive market.

[jasons]

I paid $175 for std mains after I called across the US looking for them. Isn't there already a serious scarcity issue in the 912/356 world?

['73-914kid]

I think I payed $40 for a set of main and cam bearings from Adrian Audirac at Headflow masters.. Good German bearings..

[realred914]

high Perfromance house redwood city calif still stocks them as of a few weeks ago. that is where mine came from. rich has a selction of several cuts of the main bearings.

rumor has it that these bearings are only made every year or two, and that the bearing factory switches to these low run bearings near the holiday shut down season, so help may arrive soon. the type IV motors probably consum in one year the same number of bearings as a new auto maker needs in a couple days, so our needs are only a fraction ofa percent of the bearing makers yearly output, they wait til th eslow holiday season before they switch to type IV production, they make the run then shut it down again for a while.

[SLITS]

And .... We will be doing the normal Sunday Servie at Slits's Asshole Garage and Church of Celestial Polygamy. I will again reference the subject in my sermon from the jackstand. Communion this Sunday will be Moosehead and Burgers.

[rick 918-S]

Ok, thanks for the great info. So this is just a lull in the market? So no need to over pay for bearing sets if you can wait until stocks refill right?

[SLITS]

Ok, thanks for the great info. So this is just a lull in the market? So no need to over pay for bearing sets if you can wait until stocks refill right?

That would be most wise. No one needs another 916.

[rick 918-S]

Great info. In the spirit of trying to keep bearing info in one post, let's change the discussion a little now the supply mystery has been exposed.

I had a guy email me awhile back and ask about getting a line bore. When it comes to line boring a type I or Type IV case is there a bearing that is oversize on the outside diameter as well as smaller on the inside diameter?

How is a type IV block line bored? I know how a standard cast iron V block or inline block is bored. But the upposed block has to be different with the cam bore and the drop in cylinders.

Again, This info is probably in some thread here someplace, just trying to move some of the info to a single thread for easy searching.

[Jake Raby]

This could be the end all of our cars. Can't get hard parts, can't fix the aging engines. This is not acceptable.

This isn't the first time this has happened.. It happened in the mid 90s and again in 2001. It may not be acceptable and it may suck for those not prepared for it, but nothing can be done about it.

Hard to find parts is part of owning a vintage vehicle.

What is the problem? Don't these engines have the same crank shafts and blocks as VW busses? There is like a billion of those arond the world.

The numbers aren't enough.. When new car manufacturers place orders for a couple hundred thousand bearings, the bearing manufacturers cre nothing about an engine designed over 40 years ago.

Is there only one maker of these?

Two, primarily.. A company in Mexico called silverline and the Mahle/ Kolbenschmidt company that merged back in 1999.

Anyone ever thought about approching a manufacturer about producing these?

Absolutely.. But knowing the EXTREME development thats REQUIRED in finding the absolute sizes and materials for the bearings I can see the costs extending well into the 6 figure range. This is not an area where "close is good enough" because improper materials, bearing crush and etc can and will lead to engine failure, then lots of fingers being pointed in a direction that doesn't sound favorable.

How about a group buy or forming a sourcing committee to pursue manufacturers other than the one that currently stopped making the bearings?

I already have a MFR sourced, they have made bearings for me in the past, but the following for these engines is great enough to demand the expense of the development and the risks associated with it.It would take months of experimentation to do this CORRECTLY and thousands of test miles, tear downs and used oil analysis to make an effective product.

There bearings people not plutonium

They may not be plutonium, but they are a very big part of the critical equations that comprise the engine.

The MFR also have told us a run of bearings will be made in January, I expect these bearings to be like the new Type 1 main main bearings and not have a steel backed center bearing, which would equate to pure junk, sacrifced for ease of manufacturing and cost.

Over time bearing quality has really went downhill. The best thing to do is find a bearing from a modern engine that is still great quality and easy to source and then create an adaptor to fit these to the TIV case. The development associated with this would be great, but at least the bearings would be a proven component and could be purchased with ease at a good cost.

If I was going to put this much time and money into something, I'd outfit the case with a modern bearing and do whats required to make it a proven arrangement. We already know which bearings to use, from which modern engines. I stand ready to attack the problem in January if the bearings are not available as promised, or if they are released and are pure junk. Our first priority are our engine purchasers, so considerations of selling these to the public would be critical. Within my engines I control everything, inside someone else's engine I control nothing and when things break I don't accept finger pointing. Playing the game of "risk" is part of the title "engine builder" for me or anyone else.

Expensive, hard to find bearings are nothing new.. Buy a set for a 356 engine, they have been over 400.00/set for at least a decade.

It doesn't get much more difficult than bearing development, even with the capabilies, tools and the network that we have at our fingertips.

[jasons]

This may be a lull. But if it is, it may be an instance where prices go up like a rocket and come down like a feather.

[Jake Raby]

I expect bearings to come back to market but be held back by the importers at a "just enough" level to keep prices high. These people don't need the bearings and only care about the bottom line.

My projections are:
For a few months prices will stay high and will come back down after 6 months or so. I am willing to bet that the bearing quality is greatly reduced as well.

[rick 918-S]

I expect bearings to come back to market but be held back by the importers at a "just enough" level to keep prices high. These people don't need the bearings and only care about the bottom line.

My projections are:
For a few months prices will stay high and will come back down after 6 months or so. I am willing to bet that the bearing quality is greatly reduced as well.

Jake, Than s for the input here but your comments prompt more questions. If it takes so much R&D to come up with a quality bearing, why do you think the manufacturers would try to re-invent the wheel at the risk of having a sub-standard product? I know the obvious answer, Money. But at the cost of changing a process for a low volume sale?...,, that doesn't make sense. Once a large company invests real cash in tooling and has a know working formula it is likely "THEY" wouldn't change their wigget. But a new upstart may try to build a cheaper mouse trap as witnessed by the chinese parts George posted.

I am very tempted to get my hands on a set of bearings that are in the current market and compare them to the new release. I work with forensic engineers that do things like this all the time.

[Jake Raby]

why do you think the manufacturers would try to re-invent the wheel at the risk of having a sub-standard product?

Because they don't care. These bearings would make up a very small amount of their annual sales, a miniscule amount. If we fell off the face of the planet, they'd never miss us.

As for as comparatives, thats my job. I have bearings on hand from the 60s through present day and know the differences immediately. Anyone under my roof could pick up a non-steel backed center main bearing while wearing a blindfold and could tell the difference.

The comparatives would require the bearings to be installed in cases of a known dimension and then measured under load against a standard bearing of previous manufacture.

We do these things every time bearings change s the align bore sizing must be altered if the bearing measurements are altered.

The longevity of the engine greatly depends on bearing characteristics, sizing and application.

[dr914@autoatlanta.com]

and of course when (or if) Mahle reintroduces them in February like they said that they would, the prices will be much higher. Hold them off the market for a while so the market starves and then reintroduce them at a much higher price. I am just happy that I could buy the sets I bought at any price.

[McMark]

I know I'm in a minority, but I would happily pay $200-$300 for bearings that are continually available and good quality. I hate that I've been turning farther and farther away from the Type4 just because of part availability.

[underthetire]

One of my old customers in Nevada was a bearing MFG. They would run lots of the popular bearings all year, and would wait till stock was almost zero on the non popular bearings before tearing down other set ups and setting up for these "special" runs. I would think the VW bearings would now be specials, and probably more difficult because of all the OD/ID changes from machining cranks and cases.