Problem with Elephant Poly Bronze Front Bushings, Whipped it! Now swinging freely! Options

[bobhasissues]

Installed the poly bronze front bushings last spring. They were binding. To alleviate some of the binding I bought, from McMaster Carr, spherical washers for the frontside mounts. This helped quite a lot, but there was still a bit of binding. I figured I also needed spherical washers on the backside mounts as well to get these things to rotate without binding. My plan was to replicate the $200 Elephant backside mounts by machining enough material off the top and bottom sides of the backside mounts to accommodate spherical washers. I began this project today.
When I started to take the control arms off the car, every one the base (concave) sides of the washers fell off in pieces. I couldn't believe it. When I assembled this stuff I only gave them a good snug down with a socket wrench, no over tightening.
I do not want to continue this project and modify the backside mounts if the conical washers cannot hold up.
These are the washers I bought for the front mounts, same manufacturer for the backs, just a larger size.

I bought case hardened steel rather than stainless due to the 12 sets x $15 per set price difference.
Has anyone had a similar experience? Any advise to help me get this resolved will be greatly appreciated.

[r_towle]

curious why you need them at all?
You say that they bind,,,
If you loosen up the rear bolt and re-align the rear cross member, does that help?
Is the binding because you need to lower the front mounts?
What is Elephant rational for that issue?
I have linear bearings...no binding when I put them in...

Rich

[914dave]

You should give Elephant a call. I bought the same kit last summer and they sent me new washers right after I recieved the kit. They had a problem with their supplier and told me to throw the old washers out. They should make it right for you. Good Luck
Dave

[bobhasissues]

curious why you need them at all?
You say that they bind,,,
If you loosen up the rear bolt and re-align the rear cross member, does that help?
Is the binding because you need to lower the front mounts?
What is Elephant rational for that issue?
I have linear bearings...no binding when I put them in...

Rich

When I installed these I started a thread about the binding, got a lot of advise and tried everything that was suggested over and over again. Everything moves freely when just snugged down. The fronts can be tightened down and still rotate freely but the binding develops when I do the final tightening on the rear mounts. The binding isn't severe, but they are not rotating freely in the full range of travel, they bind as they approach a horizontal plane. It's very frustrating.

[ChrisFoley]

Binding through only a portion of the motion range seems to indicate a lack of co-linearity of the a-arm bushing surfaces, and not a problem with alignment of the bushings themselves.

[Dr Evil]

Isnt that a need for A arm machining? Like you do?

[ChrisFoley]

It would require a lathe with quite a big swing.
Of course, reducing the diameter by even a few thousandths would make the Elephant bushings fit too loosely.

[J P Stein]

The A arm.....er....bearing surfaces are not co-axial to each other or even round.
Obviously they were not designed to meet the tolerances which are trying to be applied here. Some of these issues were attacked with the Sine(sp?)/Mueller/ Free Motion needle bearings.....the hardened sleeves, for instance. The needle bearings allow more latitude as the needle bearing resist binding better....*I think*. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Mine moved around freely ....but maybe my A arms were more co-axial. Another set of arms may be a possibility.

[tradisrad]

I made my own "low friction" mounts and I bought my washers from Fastenal. I will check on them tomorrow and see if they are in as bad of shape as yours; I know they have some rust on them in the first year...
If you are still having binding issues then you may want to modify the rear A-arm mounts.
If I recall correctly it took a lot of fiddling until I was happy with the movement of the arms. also remember the A-arm only travels so much and you dont need to worry about binding in the areas of non travel. I can search for pictures of my install if it will help you.

[JoeSharp]

When I put them on the fromt of Carerror I had some binding at first. I was not happy so I kept changing my bolt tightening pattern and after about 4 attempts I got them to swing freely. Now with the bolts tight they swing down past center and come back a little.
I had no probalem with the rear as them would just fall till they hit something.

[sean_v8_914]

isnt case hardened brittle vs SS being more maluable ?
I think some a amrms are better than others. some installs have been a pain while others went smooth although ALL required slow torquing sequences

[J P Stein]

isnt case hardened brittle vs SS being more maluable ?

Eh? In regard to what?

[sean_v8_914]

eh, read what bob said hombre. he bought case hardened conical self centering washers . mc master also has them in SS eh

[ChrisFoley]

Case hardened parts are generally not brittle, because the part retains its soft core. They only have an outer hard layer that resists wear and deformation.
Those spherical washers should not have failed from the forces working on the a-arm mounts.

[sean_v8_914]

thanks for that clarification to my question.
chris: what do you attribute this failure to? any hteories? I have installed this set up many times but only taken one apart after less than a year. everything looked good.

[ChrisFoley]

chris: what do you attribute this failure to?

Without seeing the broken parts or being there when it was being disassembled, my guess is that the spherical washers were overhardened.

[bobhasissues]

I made my own "low friction" mounts and I bought my washers from Fastenal. I will check on them tomorrow and see if they are in as bad of shape as yours; I know they have some rust on them in the first year...
If you are still having binding issues then you may want to modify the rear A-arm mounts.
If I recall correctly it took a lot of fiddling until I was happy with the movement of the arms. also remember the A-arm only travels so much and you dont need to worry about binding in the areas of non travel. I can search for pictures of my install if it will help you.

Thanks Triadsrad,
You sent photos of your Elephant based modified rears last spring when I first posted about the binding problem. My plan was to do the same mod to the rears that you did (but I stripped and painted the car before getting back to this). I actually moved ahead today and made the mods. Got them swinging freely now. Before the modification, the rear mounts were definitely being forced out of alignment when tightened. Glad you gave me the tip on the mods and saved me $200.

Regarding the broken washers:
I did notice, when looking back at Elephant's site, the outside diameter of the washers I bought from McMaster Carr are not as large as the ones that Elephant provides with their kit. The washers I ordered were based upon the bolt sizes. Elephant is either using the next bolt size up or has found a manufacturer that makes a beefier set. Also, I neglected to use a flat washer between the bolt head and the conical base when I installed them which may have caused the bases to break. I did use flat washers this time and am hoping this will resolve that problem. If not, I'll have to try another supplier for the spherical washers. But for now all is good.

Thanks everyone.