How Much Would You Pay for Dunlop SP57 Repops?, Possible source to reproduce 165HR15 Options

[Tom_T]

As the title says - folks can poll on what maximum price they'd be willing to pay for a newly minted Dunlop SP57 165HR15 tire - as originally supplied on our 914s, in order to see if we can interest Dunlop to reproduce them in limited quantities. Out of the USA folks can use the Google currency converter to get dollars on the poll to their price in local currency.

PS - the last option in the number of tires that someone added for me is really "5 or more" - i.e.: you'll want a set of 4 + spare, or more than one set.

I know - less is better, but how much are they worth to you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I've been corresponding with a supplier of Dunlop vintage racing tires about the possibility of Dunlop also reproducing the OEM Dunlop SP57 tubeless tires in 165HR15 size & speed rating (165/80HR15), as were originally equipped on many of our 914 2.0s & 914-6s with 15" wheels, and as options on 1.7 & 1.8 models - as shown in the pix below. They were also supplied on 911s, 912Es & many other sports cars & coupes of that period (Opel GTs & Mantas, BMW 2002s & 2.8/3.0s, etc.).

They were well known as very "sticky" & great handling street & street-class AX/track tires back in the day. They would have the same cachet today - ostensibly with modern rubber compounds, as well as being new versions of exactly correct fitment tires for the CWs, and for those who prefer this 165HR15 size for correct fit, accurate speedo & odometer readings, better fuel mileage, etc.

At this point in time, there are only imperfect options for our 914s spec'd for 165HR15 tires, including:

1. A few 165/80R15 tires out there in SR & TR speed ratings made by Bridgestone and a couple of mass market suppliers in the $75-100+ range (see speed ratings info below),

2. Vredestein offers their Sport+ 165HR15 for $107 in an average passenger tire looking tread,

3. Michelin offers the XAS 165HR15 tube-type for nearly $290 (with tubes) which won't perform properly when mounted on our OEM 15x4.5 & 15x5.5 "J" tubeless type rims (tire movement causes tubes to catch/pinch & pop),

4. or their period up-size optional XWX 185/70VR15 tubeless tires for $407 each (has about a 0.8% odometer error over 165s),

5. and Pirelli is also rumored to be repopping their CN67 or CN72 Cinturato's in 165HR15 - but they too will be tube-type.

6. There are also Michelin, Pirelli, Vredestein & other tires in the 155 & 165SR15 sizes & speed rating, but these were spec'd for the 1.7L 914s and many 912s & some 356s.

The latter tire was spec'd for the 912's 1.6L & 914 1.7s & 1.8s, because the SR was only a 112 mph speed rating. Whereas, the 914-6s, 914-2.0s, 911s & 912Es with the 2.0 generally had higher top speeds to warrant spec'ing the 130 mph HR tires (TR at 118 mph was not around back then, and VR was 149 mph & was spec'd for higher performance 914GT's, 911 E's & S's, etc., and used for better grip in AX & track use for 914 6's & 2.0's as an optional upgrade - e.g.: with the M471 option IIRC).

As with the prospective Dunlop SP57 repops - the Michelins & Pirelli's above were always higher priced tires than the other more run-of-the-mill brands back in the day, and they are limited run reproduction vintage tires today - so a bit more pricey than the mass market tires generally made in China today in the SR & TR sizes below $120 today - Vredesteins fall somewhere in between (not sure where they're made), but their tread doesn't look much like a sport tire, as much as a passenger touring type often used on the Brit sedans of the day.

That's the current range of original fitment tires, and you can read up more on these less than perfect options at this thread: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act...=44&t=74857

So, the question comes up as to what the 914 & Porschephile public worldwide out there would be willing to pay for such repops?
... and whether it's worth Dunlop's while to do so?
... they think we'd need interest in at least 200+ tires for a short run, at a marketable price.
Ergo - the reason for the poll.

So please weigh in on this poll as to what you'd be willing to pay for reproductions of the original tires which came on your 914, which I will share with the Dunlop supplier & he with their limited run factory in the UK.


> FYI - these last two pix above are from the Jan. 73 MT & Feb. 73 R&T Test articles on the then new 914-2.0/"914S".

.

What say you!!?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[bandjoey]

We don't want to give the supplier the bullets to shoot us with.

If the poll shows we'd pay $400 then the price won't be any lower, and might be higher. Whatever we poll, we don't want that number to go to the seller.

A better poll would be how many tires we'd buy and then let them bid on the price.

What if we come up with 400 tires? That might give us leverage on the price.

How 'bout a new poll for quantity?

[Tom_T]

I understand the concern Bill, but the issue is trying to determine price elasticity, so they can see how fast volume drops as price increases.

On their end, they need to look at numbers vs. price vs. their cost to produce at volume. Their bullets are there, in that it's a vintage tire, we don't know yet if they still have the molds, and a limited production run, so pricing will probably fall in the range of other similar vintage tire short runs.

With this type of production, a larger number will result in a lower per unit cost/price, no matter what we vote here. That leverage will still be there with more volume, so get your buddies with other cars that had these back in the 70's to vote too.

So it's best to put whatever price seems reasonable to each person, before you get the "willies" over shelling out that much (no pun intended Steve W. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ).

If I had only asked how many tires wanted on here, then everyone would say it depends on the cost per! It's kind of a chicken & egg dilemma. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

This poll doesn't form a scientific survey nor a contract to buy, but is only intended to get an idea of what the demand might be. I have my idea of where the bell curve will peak, but I'll keep it to myself, so as not to contaminate to poll (& I did a null vote for myself).

If somebody can tell me how to modify the poll, then I think I can add a 2nd question on number wanted to purchase 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6+ & I can correct my spelling error in the 1st set!
..... anyone know how?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) ..... or maybe one of the moderators can get in there & add a second question on how many?

Dang! Why didn't I think to do that 2nd question too!!?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[dr914@autoatlanta.com]

I think that they would be a hit is sold for the same price as the lousy, soft side walled Vredestein tires. They would also best of all look factory original which is very very important to all of the concours guys. If they made them with modern materials but the vintage look it would even be better. I am sure that the 911 912 and 914 guys would buy the whole run. We would even advertise them on our website.

[Sarastro]

If they made them with modern materials . . . .

The old materials worked well for me as I drove over 40,000 miles on each of my first 4 sets of tires. They were Michelins which was what my 1973 had on it when I drove it off the new car lot that year.

My 1970, 914-4 has two of the original tires on it (this car is not now on the street).

On assumes that even on new tires, the age of the rubber and not milage will be the limiting factor in determining long term durability.

[GeorgeRud]

I'm sure Coker Tire could tell anyone the price point necessary to make such a project work.

Looking at their prices, either it's more expensive than you think, or they are making a killing on these vintage tires (or more likely a mixture of the two).

[SirAndy]

What if we come up with 400 tires? That might give us leverage on the price.

I seriously doubt 400 tires would make a dent in any tire manufactures budget ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[Scott S]

Andy is spot on. Dunlop will make (and has made) several of their vintage tires – but you will pay for them. We just put these on the C-type replica last month. They are a reproduction of their 50’s race rubber. They have been making them for many years (so no special run or anything) and they are still 450.00 each. We found this particular set on the east coast. They were used, but very little (still have all of the flashing on them) and they were still over 250 each. I would love to know the margins on these things, as well as the stuff Coker/etc sells.

[Pat Garvey]

I'll step up to mike right now, and state that I will buy five of them - so long as they are less than $400/each complete! And are warrranted.
Pat

[detoxcowboy]

I may have voted the wrong way and other as well, I bought 5 tires for 500.00 installed, good tires too not the bottom just a sweet deal.. And when reading this now I understand and see the value for what they are,.. Yes if I restored to the period and that was what I was doing, I would be right along with Pat and his price set of $400 each.. Then I would not ever hardly drive on them if at all.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[Mike Bellis]

Is it 40 year old tire technology too? I would not buy these but only because they will not fit my 9x16's. I think these would be good for the concourse guys. If you actually drive your 914, there are better tires built with modern technology to make your car drive and handle better.

[Tom_T]

Thanx to whomever fixed the poll for me on the numbers to buy question that I forgot to add! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I was too tired & hurried when I set it up - not to mention (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) - as I've been cranking on a report since last Wednesday & just now finished at almost 2:00 am Monday/Tuesday! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/coffee.gif)

Also Thanx for all of your input, please spread the word for others to weigh in too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I remember seeing someone on here recently paid $150 or $175 for a single 30+ year old SP57 from the classifieds for his "show spare".

As I understand it, if reproduced now, it would be by the same UK factory that does the small runs of their vintage racing and street car tires, using the period molds and design, but with modern materials. I guess I'd call them mixed tire technology. So they might wear &/or handle a little better than the original SP57s, but wouldn't be like the new "crazy tread" high performance tires of today, but then who knows.

In agreement with Joe - in my mind, their final price will determine whether I'd use them for driving, or just for show, as I plan to do both with mine when done with the resto.
- but hopefully more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) than (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) !

The SP57s and the less costly Semperit M201/M401 tires were the best handling tires on 914s in the stock 165HR15 size back in the day, but the SP57s were a softer rubber and wore faster - especially under hard driving, maybe 10-20k miles. Whereas the Sempi's you could pay a little less, drive just as hard with as good handling, but get 20-40k miles on them (and per both MT & R&T tire tests of the day) - but Semperit doesn't export to the US anymore, let alone make their vintage tires.

PS - I'd be looking for a full set of 5 myself, with repeats of 4 as the wear out - assuming that they were priced low enough to not give me heart failure when they wear out!

Cheers All Y'all! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
///////

[MarcoC]

Andy is spot on. Dunlop will make (and has made) several of their vintage tires – but you will pay for them. We just put these on the C-type replica last month. They are a reproduction of their 50’s race rubber. They have been making them for many years (so no special run or anything) and they are still 450.00 each. We found this particular set on the east coast. They were used, but very little (still have all of the flashing on them) and they were still over 250 each. I would love to know the margins on these things, as well as the stuff Coker/etc sells.

Same as Pat: I would take 5, for 400$

Marco.

[Jasfsmith]

3. Michelin offers the XAS 165HR15 tube-type for nearly $290 (with tubes) which won't perform properly when mounted on our OEM 15x4.5 & 15x5.5 "J" tubeless type rims (tire movement causes tubes to catch/pinch & pop),

Tom:

Any evidence to this statement?

Back in the day, I used XAS with tubes on both 4.5 and 5.5 "J" type rims without problems. Logged a lot of track time on them too.

Today I use them on my 5 bolt Mahle's without any problems.

From my exchanges with Coker, they use the original molds with the latest tire fabrication technology. They have to to meet current DOT requirements.

[Tom_T]

3. Michelin offers the XAS 165HR15 tube-type for nearly $290 (with tubes) which won't perform properly when mounted on our OEM 15x4.5 & 15x5.5 "J" tubeless type rims (tire movement causes tubes to catch/pinch & pop),

Tom:

Any evidence to this statement?

Back in the day, I used XAS with tubes on both 4.5 and 5.5 "J" type rims without problems. Logged a lot of track time on them too.

Today I use them on my 5 bolt Mahle's without any problems.

From my exchanges with Coker, they use the original molds with the latest tire fabrication technology. They have to to meet current DOT requirements.

James, that's what I was told by my tire guys back in 1980 when Semperit stopped producing the M401s, Dunlop had stopped the SP57s & Michelin stopped their tubeless XZX or XWX in this size - and they could've sold me the more expensive XAS with tubes, instead of the Kleber's I got (3x more).

As it was explained/shown to me then, there is a difference in the bead design on tubeless tires and the edge bead of the tubeless rims which hold in the tubeless tires air tight, but can wreak havoc on the tube-type tires lacking the interlocking bead.

It makes it easier in the installation for a tube to get stuck between the rim and tire bead and pop later under driving stress and movement (if it doesn't pop right away).

Also, the non-matching bead allows for more movement while cornering and after heat/cool cycles of use and wear "loosen" the rubber, such that a tube can actually get caught while the sidewall is flexing (since the bead isn't locked in the rim as it would be on a tube type tire), and then pinch and pop.

Yes people use them on tubeless type rims without incident, but IMHO - that's luck, not proof to the contrary. Besides, why pay an extra $30+ per tire for a tube when you can get a tubeless without the hassle?

From what I understand, Dunlop does the same on their repops as Coker, but am not sure if they go through the formal DOT approval process. it's apparently expensive and time consuming on limited production tires, so all of the majors label many of their vintage repops as "racing" or "track use only" to get around that formal process (including Michelin, Pirelli, Bridgestone, Goodyear, Firestone, Avon, Dunlop, etc.).

Since it was an approved tire before, there may be a streamlined process that they could use or still go under as the old approval, and perhaps that's what Coker uses (and not all of Coker's tires are DOT approved for street use).

In any case, they'll be safer & more solid, than a 30+ year old set sitting in some warehouse, on a spare or on a car I would bet! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[smg914]

Since the SP57's were no longer available, back in 2003 prior to Parade, I purchased Dunlop 165R15 SP20's to put on the Sahara Beige 914. I would have loved to put on 4 SP57's to match the original spare but that wasn't possible. However as you probably know, Parade Preservation Group Judges only care that the tire is the correct size. They don't care about tread pattern or the manufacture. They also overlook the battery although I don't know what they think about the Optima which certainly isn't period correct looking. Having said all that, I would still love to have a brand new set of SP57's on SB. It would certainly be the icing on the cake.

[Tom_T]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif) ...... & vote! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

If it helps any, I'd look at them for mine in 2 ways: less than $150 or so each as a driver + show set (dual use) - but north of $200 or so each, then they'd probably sit on a set of wheels for show only, & I'd get some < $100 drivers on another set of wheels.

I'd be getting a set of 5 to start with, then replacements as needed if in the driver price range above.

I did a "look at results only" awhile back not realizing that that actually gave me "no vote" DOH! So I couldn't vote now anyhoo! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[Tom_T]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif)

Plz vote for both price & how many tires you'd want (last option should read 5 or more).

We've got 63 votes, but not all are voting on number - so the 21 or so votes there roughly comes out to 80+ tires so far. If all 63 votes were avg. of 4 apiece, then that's about 250+ tires for an informal interest list so far. Not bad from just old 914 folks, plus more from the old 911s, 912s & other makes crowd using them.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[a914622]

I have one of those tire on the spare rim. Its been sitting in the basment for 20 years. Iv always thought the "S" in the tread was for Spare. Thanks for edumacatig me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tom_T]

I have one of those tire on the spare rim. Its been sitting in the basment for 20 years. Iv always thought the "S" in the tread was for Spare. Thanks for edumacatig me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Edumacation is good at any age! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)