EFI for 1k, programable |
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EFI for 1k, programable |
0396 |
Mar 30 2014, 12:26 PM
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#41
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,046 Joined: 13-October 03 From: L.A. Calif Member No.: 1,245 Region Association: Southern California |
First of all, I have next to no real knowledge on this modern FI stuff. Regards to the above suggestion....that's exactly what I'm trying to do now. I've been talked into trying to adapt a Honda Civic ODB1 ECU to run on my new type 4 engine. I've search and found out that Mark produces a "trigger " wheel for the fuel injection. If he reads this posting, I have a question for him. Can I simply utilize that trigger to communicate / fire off the injectors? You see...I do mean I have no knowledge. Thanks for any future input.......sorry as my finger was too fast...thus the double post. Brad and I talked briefly about a setup like this. Bottom line... You can use the EFI off any engine on a 914 IF you can duplicate all the sensor input/output. This does not mean it will run well. Once you duplicate sensors, you are at the mercy of the ECU fuel map. Most likely it will run but will not be matched to the engine you are putting it on. Early ODBI systems have almost no fuel correction. A 2005 or later ODBII system with WB O2 would correct better. But is is still not setup for an air cooled engine. If you want to play with OEM EFI systems, pick one with a big aftermarket support group. Honda, Subaru & Toyota have great support for flashing ECU's. And web sites like this one for technical info. The newer the ECU, the more support there usually is. Early ECU's use a ton of vacuum lines to make everything work and smog correctly. I would stay away from 1990's ECU's except GM. I could take the Audi/VW ECU (2000 MY) I have and rework it for a T4 but the cam and crank signals would require some creative internal modifications. All the other sensors just bolt on somewhere. Thanks for the info. .I guess the $ I just spent was for not .. to my knowledge Richard Clewett has a plug and play system. Instead of saving money. I ended up losing $. Time to call Richard Clewett ...oh does anyone know how much Mark us selling his Mega system for? Thanks |
aircooledtechguy |
Mar 30 2014, 01:30 PM
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#42
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The Aircooledtech Guy Group: Members Posts: 1,966 Joined: 8-November 08 From: Anacortes, WA Member No.: 9,730 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
Admins, is it time we devote a sub-forum to aggregate the collective wisdom, experience and solutions? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) This might be a good idea... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) IMHO, if you're looking for a programmable EFI system for $1K or less, MS is your only option and you'll be doing all the fabrication. Looking for a PnP system isn't out there in that price range and IMHO expecting one to be, is totally unrealistic considering carbs cost nearly that . . . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) In reality, it could be done for around $700-$800 if you used your OEM EFI plenum, runners, injectors, sensor and hit the wrecking yard for the rest. MS has been around long enough now that you can easily find someone who is running it on a motor like yours that will be willing to send you the .MSQ file (the complete engine tune file). From there it's tailoring it to your specific engine. MS is the least expensive, most capable system out there for the $$$. I get my MS systems and parts for me and my clients come from Mario at www.thedubshop.net. He's local to me and I've had a great relationship with him for years. There are many others including McMark who can hook you up with a system, parts and service too. |
914werke |
Apr 1 2014, 10:17 AM
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#43
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"I got blisters on me fingers" Group: Members Posts: 9,894 Joined: 22-March 03 From: USofA Member No.: 453 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
So it seems the general topic: OE FI troubleshooting / FI tweek'ing / FI replacement / Mega - Microsquirt implementation, has reached a point of critical mass ? Time has taken its toll on 35+ yr old parts, OE supply has dwindled or disappeared. Aftermarket support & options for "PnP kits" has improved & costs have come down (some). Admins, is it time we devote a sub-forum to aggregate the collective wisdom, experience and solutions? Sorry for the Hijack but for example I was contemplating the debate between ITBs & comman Plenum applications, considered the prevailing wisdom, a limiting factor is the SIZE of the Plenum. So I did a search & came up with this interesting project:intake plenum design |
McMark |
Apr 1 2014, 10:47 AM
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#44
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914 Freak! Group: Retired Admin Posts: 20,177 Joined: 13-March 03 From: Grand Rapids, MI Member No.: 419 Region Association: None |
I think ITB setups are a bit more of a pain to set up. You still have a linkage that you have to sync up correctly and there's little benefit for all the extra work. I think any stock FI hardware (runners, plenum, TB, etc) will save you LOADS of time in setup and configuration. Plus they're cheap. You can also use stock injectors if you run a resistor pack (stock 1.8 L-Jet part works). IMHO, chasing after "best" solutions (ITB vs plenum, custom plenum sizing, etc) just gets in the way of getting a system up and running. Try to work with as few new components as possible so the learning curve doesn't go off the charts. Add new stuff in a little at a time after you have the basics.
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Dr Evil |
Apr 1 2014, 03:13 PM
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#45
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Send me your transmission! Group: Members Posts: 22,993 Joined: 21-November 03 From: Loveland, OH 45140 Member No.: 1,372 Region Association: MidAtlantic Region |
I would be down for a FI sub-forum. I do like the CIS as it is pretty idiot proof once running. My current fight with the bus is due to rush job, lots of prototypes, and possible incorrect wiring of some circuits. Learning curve. Fun stuff. A CIS for a 4 cyl, as mentioned, would be pretty cheap and easy. Type47 has one posted and it is nice and easy.
For electronic, I agree with everything said. MS, around $800, needs tweaking. I like the central inlet, too. Porsche uses it on many of their engines. |
914_teener |
Apr 1 2014, 03:43 PM
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#46
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,193 Joined: 31-August 08 From: So. Cal Member No.: 9,489 Region Association: Southern California |
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stugray |
Apr 1 2014, 03:47 PM
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#47
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 3,824 Joined: 17-September 09 From: Longmont, CO Member No.: 10,819 Region Association: None |
QUOTE I think any stock FI hardware (runners, plenum, TB, etc) will save you LOADS of time in setup and configuration. Plus they're cheap. I think this Plus MS would be the only way to meet the less than $1k requirement. Add in both a MAF and MPS from a pick-U-part and you can experiment with which one works best with just software tweaks. There are different orientations of D-jet intake manifolds. ( I didnt know this until I inventoried my parts stash the other day - I have one horiz & one vertical TB) The horizontal one would probably support the MAF sensor better than the vertical. Two guys that race in RMVR use 4X D-jet ITBs and run MS with E85. |
thelogo |
Apr 1 2014, 08:45 PM
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#48
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Senior Member Group: Retired Members Posts: 1,510 Joined: 6-April 10 Member No.: 11,572 Region Association: None |
Double that number & this is an option, although I know of nobody who has used this. You can check their catalog, they do have a 914 ultra competition FI system for sale. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif) Hell Yeh, I demand to know who is running this system and if its as awesome as advertising??? If I had sick electro mechanical skills ,,, and more confidence . I'd rip out my d,jet and put it in.if it indeed does fix all issues related to 44 year old fuel induction , but But come on guys who run this system , chime in , I mean I've seen every thing from 3.2. Sixes , turbo type 4' s, Subaru ,na turbo Ls1 v8 , v6 conversions , mega squirt, baby webbers , Dell's . RAby proprietary system whichi Though was also awesome , CIS etc And your tellin me no body's running this f,I ??? Shout out to the cheap sob (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif) My core , your core, our core , marine core ! I like workin for uncle sam , let's me know just who I am |
914forme |
Apr 3 2014, 10:59 AM
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#49
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Times a wastin', get wrenchin'! Group: Members Posts: 3,896 Joined: 24-July 04 From: Dayton, Ohio Member No.: 2,388 Region Association: None |
CB Compitition Fuel injection system was ran on Doc Nugent's 914 Lite project. Worked great for his car.914 Lite Project Page
Lifted from the siteA "big four" displacing 2.5 liters (2499cc to be exact): 103mm bore and 75mm stroke with CB Performance's Ultra Competition fuel injection (four 31 lb. injectors in a pair of Weber-like 48mm throttle bodies)," As for meeting the sub $1K price. Simplest is MicroSquirt, and stock EFI parts. You could change your injects to hi resistance units to save a bunch of resistors hanging out. The MicroSquirt is pretty small and water tight so mount it where ever you wish. Might be able to do that build pretty cheap, I would get a 1.7, or 1.8L intake, they flow better than the 2.0L does. And more even fill of the runners. |
914_teener |
Apr 3 2014, 11:27 AM
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#50
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,193 Joined: 31-August 08 From: So. Cal Member No.: 9,489 Region Association: Southern California |
CB Compitition Fuel injection system was ran on Doc Nugent's 914 Lite project. Worked great for his car.914 Lite Project Page Lifted from the siteA "big four" displacing 2.5 liters (2499cc to be exact): 103mm bore and 75mm stroke with CB Performance's Ultra Competition fuel injection (four 31 lb. injectors in a pair of Weber-like 48mm throttle bodies)," As for meeting the sub $1K price. Simplest is MicroSquirt, and stock EFI parts. You could change your injects to hi resistance units to save a bunch of resistors hanging out. The MicroSquirt is pretty small and water tight so mount it where ever you wish. Might be able to do that build pretty cheap, I would get a 1.7, or 1.8L intake, they flow better than the 2.0L does. And more even fill of the runners. OK....but...how many people have done this? Meaning MS with the stock components. Please raise your hands for under a $1,000 |
kevin311 |
Apr 3 2014, 02:03 PM
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#51
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Member Group: Members Posts: 105 Joined: 22-May 10 From: Tampa Bay Area Member No.: 11,752 Region Association: None |
CB Compitition Fuel injection system was ran on Doc Nugent's 914 Lite project. Worked great for his car.914 Lite Project Page Lifted from the siteA "big four" displacing 2.5 liters (2499cc to be exact): 103mm bore and 75mm stroke with CB Performance's Ultra Competition fuel injection (four 31 lb. injectors in a pair of Weber-like 48mm throttle bodies)," As for meeting the sub $1K price. Simplest is MicroSquirt, and stock EFI parts. You could change your injects to hi resistance units to save a bunch of resistors hanging out. The MicroSquirt is pretty small and water tight so mount it where ever you wish. Might be able to do that build pretty cheap, I would get a 1.7, or 1.8L intake, they flow better than the 2.0L does. And more even fill of the runners. OK....but...how many people have done this? Meaning MS with the stock components. Please raise your hands for under a $1,000 I have (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif) I installed MS2 V3.57 with a MS relay board and wiring harnesses for far less than 1k. I got the ECU on CL for $200 and ordered everything else on DIYautotune. I actually have a spare set of all of the above with a tuning cable for sale in the classifieds. I used all stock D-jet parts except for the TPS which I pulled from a junkyard. I had to fab up a plate with 5 holes to make it work on the stock throttle body (took less than an hour). After that it is just soldering the D-jet connectors to the wiring harness and start tuning. You tell the system what the resistance specs of your sensors and TPS are and the flow rate of the injectors. You don't actually need any resistors in line to use the stock injectors. There is a setting in MS called PWM that accounts for the low-resistance injectors. All in i think I had this up and running for less than $600. I already had a d-jet system on the car so I had all of those parts already. |
r_towle |
Apr 3 2014, 03:38 PM
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#52
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Custom Member Group: Members Posts: 24,501 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Taxachusetts Member No.: 124 Region Association: North East States |
how does this type of system work with a lot of overlap on the camshaft??
rich |
Mark Henry |
Apr 3 2014, 05:05 PM
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#53
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that's what I do! Group: Members Posts: 20,065 Joined: 27-December 02 From: Port Hope, Ontario Member No.: 26 Region Association: Canada |
CB Compitition Fuel injection system was ran on Doc Nugent's 914 Lite project. Worked great for his car.914 Lite Project Page Lifted from the siteA "big four" displacing 2.5 liters (2499cc to be exact): 103mm bore and 75mm stroke with CB Performance's Ultra Competition fuel injection (four 31 lb. injectors in a pair of Weber-like 48mm throttle bodies)," As for meeting the sub $1K price. Simplest is MicroSquirt, and stock EFI parts. You could change your injects to hi resistance units to save a bunch of resistors hanging out. The MicroSquirt is pretty small and water tight so mount it where ever you wish. Might be able to do that build pretty cheap, I would get a 1.7, or 1.8L intake, they flow better than the 2.0L does. And more even fill of the runners. OK....but...how many people have done this? Meaning MS with the stock components. Please raise your hands for under a $1,000 I've done it for $1200 with SDS and stock ignition and most of the stock intake bits. Obviously talking no labour $. I did it for just over $1400 with crankfire ignition on my 1.8 with mostly d-jet parts. But this is full pop for a new SDS system, I see systems all the time on evilbay and Craigslist for 500-600 bucks. |
kevin311 |
Apr 3 2014, 05:55 PM
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#54
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Member Group: Members Posts: 105 Joined: 22-May 10 From: Tampa Bay Area Member No.: 11,752 Region Association: None |
Oh yeah, I should have said I was using stock ignition as well triggering fuel by the coil negative.
I can't say anything definitively about the cam overlap but this system is used on everything from turbo rotary engines to v12's. Alot of guys in my area use it for their drag muscle cars so I imagine it would he fine. I had the stock cam. Please excuse any weird stuff. Im typing this on my phone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) |
Randal |
Apr 3 2014, 06:17 PM
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#55
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 4,446 Joined: 29-May 03 From: Los Altos, CA Member No.: 750 |
Did you see my ad? I'm selling my spare link ECU.
If you want the ITB, i.e., 45MM TWM TB's with injectors, fuel rails, stainless fuel lines, manifolds, air cleaners, linkage, fuel regulator and filters, high performance fuel pump and filters, take a look at my engine that is for sale. The best of everything. Oh, the harness. I had Neal Harvey build mine, but it was three times the budget you outlined. Did you see my offer to share the harness diagram with you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) |
r_towle |
Apr 3 2014, 06:35 PM
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#56
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Custom Member Group: Members Posts: 24,501 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Taxachusetts Member No.: 124 Region Association: North East States |
Did you see my ad? I'm selling my spare link ECU. If you want the ITB, i.e., 45MM TWM TB's with injectors, fuel rails, stainless fuel lines, manifolds, air cleaners, linkage, fuel regulator and filters, high performance fuel pump and filters, take a look at my engine that is for sale. The best of everything. Oh, the harness. I had Neal Harvey build mine, but it was three times the budget you outlined. Did you see my offer to share the harness diagram with you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) Wow, nice motor for sale. A bit more than I would spend for a type 4 motor...I would go for a six at that price. For about 7k I would be interested, and yes I know that is too low. After that, I would buy a 3.6 and get it done. |
Randal |
Apr 3 2014, 06:40 PM
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#57
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 4,446 Joined: 29-May 03 From: Los Altos, CA Member No.: 750 |
Did you see my ad? I'm selling my spare link ECU. If you want the ITB, i.e., 45MM TWM TB's with injectors, fuel rails, stainless fuel lines, manifolds, air cleaners, linkage, fuel regulator and filters, high performance fuel pump and filters, take a look at my engine that is for sale. The best of everything. Oh, the harness. I had Neal Harvey build mine, but it was three times the budget you outlined. Did you see my offer to share the harness diagram with you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) Wow, nice motor for sale. A bit more than I would spend for a type 4 motor...I would go for a six at that price. For about 7k I would be interested, and yes I know that is too low. After that, I would buy a 3.6 and get it done. The reason for a big four, in racing, is simple. Lighter and if built right, more torque. So it's just a competition thing, really. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
914forme |
Apr 18 2014, 06:55 PM
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#58
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Times a wastin', get wrenchin'! Group: Members Posts: 3,896 Joined: 24-July 04 From: Dayton, Ohio Member No.: 2,388 Region Association: None |
Instead of Mega / MicroSquirt you might want to look at these also.
GoTech That one will work for a 4 cyl. car. The trick will be getting a engine temp sensor to work. But the price is pretty low thank you conversion rate. Here is a link to the manual. Installation Manual It looks like a pretty nice little setup for the price. Now of course not having ever used one, I don't know. But I will know in a year or so once I get the rest on my suby conversion done. I might have just gotten (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif) |
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