914 vs. Super Beetle, Similar? Options

[BMartin914]

I've been taking some heat from a few (non-Porschephiles) that are really down on the T4 engine (the 1.8 I am looking at specifically).

How similar are these engines (power, accel. wise) compared to the VW H4 engines used in the super beetle? I try to explain that the T4 and the earlier VW engines are quite DISSIMILAR in many ways. I still get the "its a bug motor?!" question.

Could somebody help me put this to rest and post what you know/your experiences with the power/driveability of the 914s T4 engine? Differences between the 914s T4 and the MANY other types of VW H4 engines?

[URY914]

I guess the first fact would be the T-IV was never in a bug. After that the list is very long.

Jake will jump on this one with both feet!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I met a guy once that thought 911's had VW engines. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

Paul

[ArtechnikA]

not sure why you care actually...

you know, of course, that the "VW-Porsche 914" is a Volkswagen Type 47 car, built at the Karmann factory ...

the T-IV shares its coaxial fan cooling system design with the T-III, and fundamental design concepts with all the flat-4 boxer aircooled VW engines.

the case is bigger and stronger, as is the crankshaft. it has a built-in full-flow oil filter. the lifter / pushrod / pushrod tube system has some useful detail updates.

Porsche contributed significantly to the design of the 914 2,0 cylinder head.

people who get off comparing our cars with Beetles do it due to their ignorance, the ease at which you rise to their bait, or some combination of the two ...

the car and its engine are what they are.

[BMartin914]

ONE of the reasons I care is that I have never driven a 914 before. They don't come up for sale too often around here and I never see any on the road, let alone a 75 1.8 which is what I am looking at.

Subsequently, I get a "you should drive that car first so you know how slow it is." "Why don't you just test drive a bug -- they have the same engine."

So, for my own benefit, I am trying to get an idea of the differences between the various engine types (driveability, power, etc.)

[DNHunt]

I've had both and both were 74's. Neither will blast you back in the seat. Both are fun. The torque curve for the teener is broader but it has longer gears so the acceleration is pretty similar in terms of time off the line. But, you will not shift as soon and you will have a faster top end in the 914.

The 914's handling can't be compared to the Super Beetle. It's a true sports car, the VW is a Coupe.

Your friends are right you must drive it but not to see how similar they are; you need to see how different they are.

Dave

[ArtechnikA]

Subsequently, I get a "you should drive that car first so you know how slow it is." "Why don't you just test drive a bug -- they have the same engine."

in that context, they're right - plus or minus but a very small amount, they have the same engine. they sound about the same, and they have about the same power ratings. even the torque curve is about the same. (plus or minus a little, the same engine is in an Oldsmobile as a Corvette. there's more to the experience than the engine.)

however - the Beetle doesn't have the Porsche 5-speed, which changes the game A LOT, and most important - a 914 isn't really about power, it is about handling and balance.

if you want the dragrace experience, get something with a big American V8. 914's are about turning. they have pretty darned good brakes but the key to going fast in a 914 is - don't use them. these cars have phenominal grip and can corner at speeds that would have most other cars off in the weeds.

we have several if not many 914 owners on the board in the Denver area - a few even with running cars :-) ... i bet one or more will pipe up and volunteer to give you the test-drive experience once they're back from their 3-day weekend and catch up with the thread traffic ...

[BMartin914]

Thanks for the feedback. I know that these cars are not rockets. In fact, that is NOT what I am looking for. I want a car that: is FUN, i can work on with relative ease, is not too expensive (to buy or maintain), and that handles WELL -- no SUVs here!

I don't like (no offense) or want an American V8. But everyone around here wants "big power in a straight line." Just put a NOS kit on kind of people. Not my bag, but its no surprise that this is the response I get from these folks.

The responses from this post have just reinforced my desire for one of these cars.

thanks

[lmcchesney]

As I said on the other borad, it seems you are focusing on the engine. Try this sight to gain an understanding of the Type IV.
http://tunacan.net/t4/index.shtml Did you know you can even place a Chevy small block in a 914?
L. McC

[Katmanken]

Engines are similar but not the same. Both are aircooled but the type IV is bigger and stronger.

My superbeetle maxed out at 53 good old reliable horsepower. It ran for 250,000 miles because it was hard to overstress or over rev it. It also handled like a tail heavy pig.

My teener engines are rated at about 80 for the1.8 and about 95 for the 2.0. That's about 60% more power and about 90% more power for vehicles are close to the same weight. The teener is about ballance.

Neither engine is a rocket unless you do some mods. Call Jake for more power.

Ken

[red914]

a couple quotes from the april 2004 excellence (the magazine about porsche) magazine:

"the mid-engined vw-porsche 914 is the best handling, most useful porsche built to date." david colman, feature editor

"...this little porsche defines the term 'driver's car.' conservation of speed is everything here -- slow down in a 914 and you can't count on big power to get you back up to speed. get it right and even 80 hp is enough to maintain a shattering pace on a back road -- all due to a superb mid-engined chassis. ultra-light, agile, and responsive, the 914 was let down only by engines choked down with politics." pete stout, editor

underpowered, yes; but the most fun car i have ever driven! you feel connected to it in a way no other car, in my experience, can match. certainly not at its price. someone on this board once made the comment in response to criticism such as what you are facing that the original porsches (the gmund, the early 356s) were closer to vw than any 914 ever was. pretty accurate...

[Gint]

First of all, what is your first name?

ONE of the reasons I care is that I have never driven a 914 before.

You need to post on the local list and ask someone for an opportunity to drive their 914. Someone will almost certainly oblige. To my knowledge there was never a stock Bug that had 95 HP. To me that's a significant enough difference all by itself. But as others have said though, a 914 and a Beetle aren't even close with regard to the overall driving experience.

[Katmanken]

Drive a teener to find out about balance. In stock form they are not known for power but are known for balance. Having the roof come off on sunny days is another plus.

Personally, I would much rather drive a great handling underpowered car than a poor handling overpowered car.

Ken

[BMartin914]

Thanks,

I really appreciate all of the input. The reasons I have been given as to why the 914 is such a great car have contributed to my desire for the car.

Realistically, I drove an 83 Datsun Maxima for 6 years with one of the laziest AT in the world in it. That trans. would never let that motor get above 2500 rpm. I know what SLOW is. I also know that the 914 is a world apart (and probably has close to the hp rating that the Max had) and probably handles like a F1 car compared to the Maxima.

The point is that I KNOW the characteristics of the engine well enough to know that it is not going to smoke anything off the line -- and that's ok. It doesn't need to. I would just like some ammo to silence the critics. Sounds a little childish I know, but I would rather have my friends on my side and have them UNDERSTAND the 914 before they trash the whole idea out of ignorance.

I know...who cares what they think right?

BTW, my name is Ben and I have ABSOLUTLEY no interest in 914 V8 conversions. I would go all Porsche if it were me. Just my $.02.

[Joe Ricard]

I talked to a guy that thought my 928 had a VW motor in it. He nearly crapped at the sight of a Porsche V-8. Yes I have a trans axle drain plug with a VW part number on it. But that is about it. unless you count the 27 or so some odd fuses. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Super beetles had Type I motors. teeners have Type IV motors Much bigger everything.

[Gint]

That's better. Now I know who I'm talking to. Hi Ben! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wavey.gif)

If I had a running 914/4 I'd come take ya for a ride. Post on the Colorado list. We're an extremely friendly bunch.

[Mark Henry]

One thing I’ve noticed is that a lot of people who are down on the 914 have never driven one and if they have it was a POS rust bucket. Lets face it, any car that’s been let to go to pot will be a POS.

You can think of the T4 as a big block bug engine, the 1.8 has the least power of all the 914’s, but it’s still fun to drive.

[SirAndy]

Subsequently, I get a "you should drive that car first so you know how slow it is." "Why don't you just test drive a bug -- they have the same engine."

the super beetle has a 1.6L, 50HP engine (euro-spec).
the 1.8L has 85HP (euro-spec).

i have a stock 1.8L in my car (us-spec), probably 70HP on a good day.

if your friends think that a 914 with a 1.8 is slow, they don't know how to drive!
you won't win any 1/4 mile drag races, but if you know how to drive spirited, this car will be a LOAD of fun ...

and no, T1 and T4 engines are not the same. they have the same underlying concept. air-cooled, flat 4 boxer motor.
that's about it.

it would be like saying ALL V8 engines are exactly the same.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif)


hope this helps,
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Andy

[BMartin914]

Point taken! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Trekkor]

I like this topic! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I have been around the air cooled's all of my life.

I had a bug in 86 or so with a 2110cc dual Weber set-up. It was fast and torqey.
My first 914 memory now follows:

I'm really movin' up a long grade in the Santa Cruz mountains. Full throttle, top of 4th gear. Stinger screamin'. " This is great " ...then I see it...rear view mirror...side view...
That 914 flat b-b-b-blew m-m-m-me away and didn't slow at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) plus several others.

Reno results

No VW would even have a chance.
Sure , a pumped VW drag car will do wheelies in 1st, 2nd and third gears in a 9 sec qtr mile... but... not close to us in the back roads( my vineyard lap ) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Sure we got VW association, but, who doesn't? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

[BMartin914]

Now thats what I like to hear!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)