Shop advice, Who pays when they break something? Options

[mburkhart]

I took my car into a nearby Porsche shop to replace the pads in my rear brakes. I asked them to take a look at the rear bearings while they were in there. Turns out that I need new rear bearings for both wheels. This was not a surprise to me because Brad Mayeur (a well-respected 914 mechanic out of Peoria, IL) had driven my car two years ago and told me he was hearing something back there that sounded like bearings starting to go bad. I authorized the replacement of the rear wheel bearings.

The shop called back to tell me that they ran into some trouble while removing the stub axle and broke off a bolt. They will have to replace the stub axle costing me about $500 ($300 for a used axle, $200 in labor). They told me I was in luck and they had one (used) in stock.

My question is who should pay when something like this happens? I know these are old cars and that it can be tricky removing rusty bolts that haven't moved in 30-40 years. Should I just accept this cost or try to get them to split it with me? The additional cost basically doubles the cost I was quoted to replace these bearings!

Mike

[charliew]

Do your homework on r&r the stub axle while replacing the bearing and check used prices on the axle. I think replacing the bearing also means removing the axle so why the extra labor? Maybe to take it out of a donor? It sounds like a broke cv bolt. Take the stub to a machine shop and get the bolt shaft removed if the shop isn't good enough to do it themselves. To me and this is my old don't trust shops bs idea is they found out it is a bigger job than they realized maybe. You are probably going to find a lot of rusted bolts in you car though and the shop might be a very good one but most mechanics have been removing broke bolts forever.

[mburkhart]

Do your homework on r&r the stub axle while replacing the bearing and check used prices on the axle. I think replacing the bearing also means removing the axle so why the extra labor? Maybe to take it out of a donor?

I checked prices on replacement stub axles and they were $250 used on AutoAtlanta, which is close(ish). They were not available at PelicanParts.

I also don't trust repair shops, and that's why I'm asking for opinions here. I believe 100% for paying for services rendered, but I get a little put off when the actual cost turns out to be double the estimated cost. It's especially irksome when I'm paying for parts I don't need (troubleshooting a fix) or something I didn't need until the mechanic broke it.

[jmill]

$300 is outrageous for a 914/4 stub axle. Most have them kicking around in the garage. You can replace the entire axle for that price. Added labor costs are a joke. Pulling and re-installing the stub axle is part of changing the bearing. What's the additional labor charge for?

[ptravnic]

Try to get in touch w/Glenn Stazak ("gms" on the board) in the western burbs. He has a large parts stash. I doubt used stub axles go for anywhere near $300 in the private "owner to owner" market.

Happy to help if I can. PM me for more info.
-pt

[mburkhart]

$300 is outrageous for a 914/4 stub axle. Most have them kicking around in the garage. You can replace the entire axle for that price. Added labor costs are a joke. Pulling and re-installing the stub axle is part of changing the bearing. What's the additional labor charge for?

Would it be reasonable to suggest to the shop that I will provide them a used stub axle (sourced from here or a local junkyard) to cover the cost for theirs and also ask them to scratch the additional labor cost?

[jmill]

I've got 2 axles complete with stub axles and CV's you can have for $50. I'm an hour or so North of you.

[Rex-n-effect]

Did you ask them why they could not remove the broken bolt???? If it is a cv bolt that broke, this is a repair that is not difficult.....

['73-914kid]

I have a 2 stub axles sitting in trailing arms in my garage. If they want you to pay that much for a one of there's, I'll send you one for the price of shipping it.... Not sure what shipping would be from SoCal to Chicago, but it's an option. I'm sure a ton of guys have them laying around, and would give you one for next to nothing..

[PeeGreen 914]

I have to disagree with you guys jumping to not trust the shop. They aren't trying to rip you off and the part broke due to the other part needing to be fixed. They had no way of knowing at the time it would break but it was partly a cause of needing to remove it to replace the other part. Sometimes you never know until you are in there.

Yes, there are shops that will take advantage of you but many know cars break and need to be fixed. The later shops due the best service they can because they know you will be back.

[mburkhart]

Did you ask them why they could not remove the broken bolt???? If it is a cv bolt that broke, this is a repair that is not difficult.....

This is exactly my problem. I am not a mechanic (though I would love to learn more), and have no basis for pushing back when the "professionals" call me to let me know that my repair is going to cost a lost more than they expected due to unforeseen circumstances. I'm going to call them and ask why they're asking me to foot the bill for a broken bolt. If they insist that the bolt cannot be removed, then I'll remind them that this was their fault and suggest that I provide the parts and they can provide the labor free of charge as it should have been part of the original repair.

[mburkhart]

I have to disagree with you guys jumping to not trust the shop. They aren't trying to rip you off and the part broke due to the other part needing to be fixed. They had no way of knowing at the time it would break but it was partly a cause of needing to remove it to replace the other part. Sometimes you never know until you are in there.

Yes, there are shops that will take advantage of you but many know cars break and need to be fixed. The later shops due the best service they can because they know you will be back.

I would like to think the best of folks and if that is the case then I should expect them to work with me by either accepting used parts from me (someone offered two axles for $50 above) in exchange for their $300 used part, or explaining the significant additional labor cost (removing and re-installing the axles was apparently already necessary for the original repair).

[mburkhart]

Okay. I just got off the phone with the mechanic.

It sounds like he did everything he could to save the stub axle. The labor cost was the 2 hours he spent trying to coax the stub axle out of the bearing. He tried pressing it out, heating it, heating and pressing, etc. to no avail. By the time he got it out, the stub axle was damaged beyond repair.

I made sure that he understood that I appreciated the time he took in attempting to save the existing parts. I offered to pay for the labor ($200) if he would accept a replacement stub axle from me (saving me $300). He agreed.

He said to make sure that I provide "the stub axle that goes through the wheel bearing with the "big nut" that holds it all together at the end of the CV joint".

Assuming I can source one this weekend I'll be much happier than I was an hour ago. Thanks everyone for the help!

[jmill]

The bearing is sandwiched between the two parts pictured below. The stub axle is to the right. Never had one freeze up on me. They always came out like butter. I'm thinking he tore up the flange.

[Rex-n-effect]

Shops do not necessarily break things just so they can charge you more. Most shops will quote you a labor and parts price by using an industry standard shop manual. Most make their money by being able to complete the job in less time than what they have quoted. When they break bolts or whatever, the clock is ticking and now they need to contact the customer and find out what he would like to do.

Broken cv bolts are usually an easy fix. We dont know what has been broken yet??? We are just assuming it is a cv bolt on the stub axle. Many thoughts and ideas change when talking to a customer about there vehicle on the phone. Many do not know what you are talking about. They just know that they want the car fixed.

If in fact it is cv bolt, this is about the most common thing to have to fix on any VW Audi product. We do them all the time. I would think that the time it takes to extract the bolt is what you should have to pay for. Many times we do not even charge for it. It is a common problem that the techs just fix when they do it.

More info is needed before accusing the shop of anything.

[ArtechnikA]

The shop called back to tell me that they ran into some trouble while removing the stub axle and broke off a bolt.

You need to know a lot more about this 'bolt' because that statement won't parse.

The only 'bolts' you remove for rear bearings are at the inner CV / transaxle drive flange, and the bearing retainer. Neither of those scenarios involves the stub axle.

So we (by which I mean -you-) need to know a lot more about what happened _exactly_, how it got that way, and what is broken. 'cause I'm having a hard time translating any part of the problem description to stub axle damage.

(BTW - typically, broken CV bolts come out really easily once you get the others off - they're held in by the substantial clamping force, and once that's relieved, they usually spin out pretty easily. But there is _no_ reason to tinker with outer CV bolts unless they were doing unauthorized CV service. (You didn't authorize CV service, did you?) )

Without knowing exactly what's broken, and the exact nature of the stub axle 'damage' speculation is pointless.

If, on the other hand, the stub axle is damaged because they were pounding on the exposed outer threads trying to get it out of the hub, _that_ is abuse, plain and simple, and not your fault.

A homebound shadetree mechanic might be tempted to inflict this kind of damage (which would still be his fault...) out of desperation, but a shop that holds itself out as capable of doing the work should have the means (tools & knows how to use them) to extract the stub properly and without damage.

Sure, there are scenarios where a skilled mechanic will have something else break in the proper, normal exercise of removal. It happens. Sometimes parts are ready to break and don't care on whose watch it happens.

This sucks, but if they didn't 'cause it, it ought to be on your dime. (And you ought to be able to source a replacement.) If something broke because they didn't know what they were doing, they pay.

I think we know at best half the story here...

[ArtechnikA]

Still issues with the terminology...

...The labor cost was the 2 hours he spent trying to coax the stub axle out of the bearing.

The stub axle isn't in the bearing.

He said to make sure that I provide "the stub axle that goes through the wheel bearing with the "big nut" that holds it all together a the end of the CV joint".

Again - you are not describing the stub axle. You might be describing a hub.

You better know what part you're buying - really -

[mburkhart]

Still issues with the terminology...

...The labor cost was the 2 hours he spent trying to coax the stub axle out of the bearing.

The stub axle isn't in the bearing.

He said to make sure that I provide "the stub axle that goes through the wheel bearing with the "big nut" that holds it all together a the end of the CV joint".

Again - you are not describing the stub axle. You might be describing a hub.

You better know what part you're buying - really -

I forgot that he also mentioned a "castle nut" at the end of the thing. Does that help define what we're talking about here?

[charliew]

The bearing is sandwiched between the two parts pictured below. The stub axle is to the right. Never had one freeze up on me. They always came out like butter. I'm thinking he tore up the flange.

ME TOO

[Cap'n Krusty]

My point of view, as a shop owner and long time technician. First, what bolt broke? There's not a single bolt involved in the job that can't easily be removed, except possibly the bolts for the cover for the bearing or the caliper bolts, neither of which would result in the need for a replacement stub axle. Second, if the actual problem has been miscommunicated and the real problem is the threads on the stub axle, then it's reasonable for the customer to pay for a replacement part. There shouldn't be any extra labor charge other than to remove the axle from the stub, and you'll need to buy a CV joint gasket. If they already pulled the CV off the axle as part of the job, than that's a no charge deal. It's NOT their fault your car suffers from the effects of 3+ decades of corrosion and weathering. Sometimes frozen nuts come off cleanly after all due preparation, sometimes they don't .... It's a crapshoot. If it were my shop, I'd let you bring your own part for the repair, assuming I didn't have one laying around that I could sell you for a reasonable price. I happen to have about a dozen, so the odds are the price would be REAL reasonable. Say, 25 bucks.

I charge significant labor to remove stuck and broken bolts going into blind holes and into places difficult to reach. Minimum is gonna be at least 15 minutes per fastener, and helicoil time is extra. You're buying my knowledge, my tools, and my inserts, and I should be paid for that. On something like this, the R&R of the part is part of the overall job as quoted, and should be considered that way for billing.

I know there are shops that bill for each individual piece of the job, and some bill those operations in addition to the overall job, but those are the guys giving us all a bad name. How come they have big boats and Harleys, take expensive vacations, and belong to civic clubs when they've made a career out of cheating people, and I'm only moderately comfortable after nearly 40 years? Maybe that's why my advertising budget is zero and I'm booked 2-3 weeks in advance?

Talk with them nicely, don't pretend to know things you don't, and don't "get in their face"! Nice people, reasonable people, polite and respectful people, get treated with respect by good shops.

I know this rambled a bit, but I needed to say it and it just tumbled off my fingers ..........

The Cap'n

BTW, although I'm far away, you can have a stub axle for the shipping.