Wing vs Spoiler, in XP Options

[J P Stein]

Leaving drag out of the mix, Using the XP rules, is a wing more effective for getting down force than a spoiler. I've always assumed the wing is better, but have exactly 0 proof of this. The expense of a wing can go right through the roof (over 10K has been quoted).....this makes the cheep-assed spoiler look pretty good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
If a guy had a cross section pattern of an effective wing ( bling wings need not apply) DIY would make sense.....but is it worth the effort?

Note: XP limits the total ( that would include a dual element) wing area to 8 sq. feet.

[Sawfish]

Leaving drag out of the mix, Using the XP rules, is a wing more effective for getting down force than a spoiler. I've always assumed the wing is better, but have exactly 0 proof of this. The expense of a wing can go right through the roof (over 10K has been quoted).....this makes the cheep-assed spoiler look pretty good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
If a guy had a cross section pattern of an effective wing ( bling wings need not apply) DIY would make sense.....but is it worth the effort?

Note: XP limits the total ( that would include a dual element) wing area to 8 sq. feet.

My understanding is that a spoiler will disrupt airflow and subsequently reduce lift generated by the areodynmic forces imparted on a car at moderate to high speed. The wing conversley generates down force.

[PeeGreen 914]

From what I have been told is that in order for the wing to produce that downforce you must be at considerable speed in which you rarely acheive at an AX where the spoiler simply disrupts the airflow making it beneficial at low speeds.

Then again, I am only going off what I have heard as I know nothing about arrow.

[BMXerror]

From what I have been told is that in order for the wing to produce that downforce you must be at considerable speed in which you rarely acheive at an AX where the spoiler simply disrupts the airflow making it beneficial at low speeds.

Then again, I am only going off what I have heard as I know nothing about arrow.

I would agree, except this is XP we're talking about. Britain and I saw a mid 3rd gear slalom last year in which I'm sure a wing would definitely come into play. Also, given the suspension setup and slicks, some of the faster sweepers would make use of it as well.
My opinion on this is that if you think you're gaining time with a spoiler, you'll gain time with a wing as well. There's a company (I think it's called the chassis shop) who sells wing components for drag cars mostly. I'll look it up when I get home, but basically I'm remembering aluminum airfoil profiles that you wrap in sheet metal.
Mark D.

[J P Stein]

This is by far he quickest AX car I've ever seen.....tunnels, diffuser, and the wings.
He (Joe Chen) was 5-6 seconds per pass quicker that any door slammer at the NT that year. On a dirty section of track at maybe 40-50 mph, he put a roster-tail 25 feet in the air.

I'd like some info on that, Mark.

[PeeGreen 914]

Those A-Mod cars are always fun to watch (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drooley.gif)

[URY914]

The difference between my spoiler and my wing was night and day. People build wings all the time.

[jmill]

That looks like a Formula 440. Sweet little car. It's one of the cheaper ways to get into w2w racing.

[J P Stein]

That looks like a Formula 440. Sweet little car. It's one of the cheaper ways to get into w2w racing.

It is a purpose built car with no expense or technology spared. IIRC, Joe is an engineering prof. up in Vancouver BC. Come to think of it it doesn't have a CF tub...honey-comb aluminum, IIRC. After bout 15 minutes of staring at it, I still haven't fingered out the subtleties of the rear suspension. I *think* the chassis movement from the dowm force is seperate from the wheel suspension.

[BMXerror]

Man, sry JP, but I've been looking for like an hour and a half and can't find what I found before. I'm 90% sure it was Chassis Shop, and they sell wings, but not the ribs. Not anymore. They've changed their website too. They did have this interesting bit of info though.
http://secure.chassisshop.com/common/suppo...x?SolutionID=24
Just a rough chart of 'lift' and drag #s for wings.
Someone has to still sell ribs, but I just can't find them. Maybe Ury knows where to find them. If it were me, I'd just machine them myself, but I know not everybody has that option. Good luck.
Mark D.

[jmill]

It is a purpose built car with no expense or technology spared.

I'm sure it's purpose built for AX. Most F440-F600 are also purpose built to fit into the class. Looks like it wouldn't take much to have it fit into one of those classes.

[grantsfo]

The advantage good A mod cars have is that they are actually designed around the aerodynamics. Poor 914 was never designed for aero. I'm sure a car like Brits has pretty ugly airflow as it comes over low hood and hits firewall, targa bar and Mickey mouse cage. Perhaps targa bar removal, redesign of rear hoop to single bar would help with airflow. Don't forget about flow up front and under the car as well. I think 914 needs just as much if not more downforce up front.

Where is that thread where engineering student modeled airflow over 914 shape? That might help in figuring out what to do. Also I know PSU recently installed a wind tunnel up in your area. Why not ask professor of engineering if student could make a project out of Brits aerodynamic challenge?

On Joes AMod car, an old school VW powered Amod car with a big low tech wing was within a second of him when he came down and tested at Marina last year. emod guys weren't much slower within 2 to 3 seconds. He is coming down in July for AAS to tune again. Smart guy. Brit should come on down as he doesn't get much time on cement up there.


My company sponsors an FSAE team and we decided to focus on driver development rather than put limited budget into redesigned car with aero. I gave input that all drivers should sign up for karting school and we helped them get a shifter kart for training drivers as well. They also now drive tha FSAE car at many local AX events.

I would love to have access to something like this! This has to be the wildest hill climb car I have ever seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGW-TkkVl08...be_gdata_player

[stownsen914]

Wings certainly offer a lot more downforce at high speed than low speed, but I'd be shocked if a spoiler could beat out a wing of comparable size, even at low speeds. I think a properly designed and placed wing would always win.

If you're considering DIY, I recently learned about these guys, who cut foam wing cores for a very reasonable price => http://www.flyingfoam.com/. A couple years ago I built a DIY aluminum wing, but with ready made foam cores, I'd definitely try that option next time.

Scott

[J P Stein]

Wings certainly offer a lot more downforce at high speed than low speed, but I'd be shocked if a spoiler could beat out a wing of comparable size, even at low speeds. I think a properly designed and placed wing would always win.

If you're considering DIY, I recently learned about these guys, who cut foam wing cores for a very reasonable price => http://www.flyingfoam.com/. A couple years ago I built a DIY aluminum wing, but with ready made foam cores, I'd definitely try that option next time.

Scott

Thanks for the link. It doesn't have any airfoil profiles but who knows where the path will lead. The cores they cut are fairly inexpensive......cheeper than making/buying a hot wire cutter.

[J P Stein]

2010 Nats.

Modified Category
A Modified Drivers: 14 Trophies: 5
T 1 9 Dan Wasdahl 2008 BBR/Phantom DVS-1 Hoosier Neohio
Massillon, OH Hoosier GL
52.415(1) 50.071 48.965 100.587
51.622 52.737(1) 61.629

T 2 187 Gary Milligan 2007 Vancouver Special Hoosier Northwest
[87] Richmond, BC NP
51.149 49.028 48.866 104.251
55.385 55.624 DNS -3.664

[grantsfo]

I suspect Brit will want to model something close to the dual element wing Zust uses. Wing makes most sense with 914 in XP.


(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.lotustalk.com-433-1307981467.1.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.lotustalk.com-433-1307981469.2.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.lotustalk.com-433-1307981471.3.jpg)


Freds new sequential gear box is sweet!

http://youtu.be/-iDdvYB5dtI

[grantsfo]

Here's a good resource for you as well.

http://www.sm-designs.ndo.co.uk/aerofoildata.html

You might recognize some cars that use wings from these folks.

http://www.tunersgroup.com/Products/wings.html

and you cant beat "free" advice from people who actually develop aero applications for a living!

Please get in touch to discuss your needs. Initial discussions are free, and will focus on what you want to achieve and what can be delivered in response, and will determine the likely extent of your project. Quotations as well as terms and conditions will be provided at that stage so you can decide how you wish to proceed.

Simon McBeath at

Email: info@sm-aerotechniques.co.uk or info@wingshop.co.uk


...or I guess you could put a big ugly plexiglass spoiler with a Hoosier sticker on the car and call it done! LOL! Thats a lot easier than actually doing research and developing real aero package for the 914.

This post has been edited by grantsfo: Jun 13 2011, 10:48 AM

[Randal]

I'll second contacting the UK guys.

Seems like the UK is the hub for a huge amount of racing development, starting with F1 and everything else.

Use Skype and the call is free.

[URY914]

Be careful when looking at wing profiles as there is a big differance between low speed a/x wings and high speed sport racer or formula car wings.

[brilliantrot]

I was talking to Mike Simanyi this weekend about the wing on his SSM BMW as it is a pretty radical looking 3D twin foil carbon fiber piece and he said that at 80mph of wind speed at the leading edge with the second foil at maximum angle of attack it makes over 500lb of down force. He said that they had to trim the wing way out because he couldn't get enough front down force to compensate for the rear wing when he changed from a regular duel plan like is on Zust's car. I didn't ask how much it cost and his car has ~400hp right now so he has the umph to push a lot of drag but it might be worth looking into.