Will not start, Valve clearance advice needed. modified 1.7 Options

[Haudiosolutions]

Confusing issue which has been compounded by frequent torential rain and being on-call with 15+ hour days. Short back ground.... Steve and I were attempting to get my valves adjusted which was cut short by heavy rain. When I attempted to start the car later, nothing would happen. The battery seems good. Lights and accessories work. The starter can be manually jumped but I can't get action from the starter by using the ignition switch. The only thing I did out of the ordinary was absent mindedly leave the key switched one click up to unlock the wheel and left it that way for a while but not so far the fuel pump was running. I don't think that would cause an issue but figued I'd throw it in there. There are also two what looks like relays of some sort which I hope someone can clue me in on. The one in the pic is the one up top and the other one not pictured but looks very similar is wired to the starter. I should also add it's a standard points setup.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions. Saturday will be the earliest I could look at it unless I can bribe Steve with cash to get on it heheh (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

[Haudiosolutions]

Another angle:

[Prospectfarms]

Looks like you have a Bosch hot start relay added by a PO. Remove it. if the car starts problem solved if not it sounds to me like the dreaded bad ignition switch BTDT.

A $5 diagnosis and fix is to bypass the ignition switch by hooking up a temporary push button switch. Buy a push button switch from your local FLAPS and wire it to the starter temporarily. Turn the key to the on position then push the button if the car starts most likely its a bad ignition switch.

Put a digital multi meter (DMM) on the battery and check voltage with and without key engaged.

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I've never had good luck with those add-on relays. Not sturdy. On some cars the solenoid current is too much for the ign. switch to carry but I don't think that's so for STOCK 914 starter's. If you know your starter's good, why even test it by hotwiring the ignition? Undo the relay wiring, reconnect the switch lead and turn the key. If no go, replace the switch because it's a cheap and easy (at least it is for earlier models)way to spend 1 hour.

The switch that goes bad is a small white piece of plastic that lives beneath the key tumbler. They don't live very long with a crusty, high-resistance wire harness. The switches are interchangeable with beetles of approx. the same year. It's $10 or $15 either way. Pelican Parts Tech Articles has another good write up about replacing one. Don't forget the small hexagonal (whatever happened to "Allen?") set-screw that holds the switch inside the metal tumbler. Easy to miss and then your switch won't come out confusing everyone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[poorsche914]

... Saturday will be the earliest I could look at it unless I can bribe Steve with cash to get on it heheh (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

No bribe necessary. If this rain ever quits, I will remove the relay to the starter and see what happens. Might even do the DMM test to the battery.
If it ends up being the switch, that is an easy repair. If all years are the same, I should have a spare switch somewhere.

Got to get it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[Haudiosolutions]

Thanks for the ideas! If the rain ever quits!!?? hehehehehehhee As soon as this thing is running, I'm trading it for a boat! But seriously, your time is valuable too and maybe we can get the rest of your motor in order as well. I have a switch I could harvest from my 73 if it'll work on a 71. I hope it's the hot start relay though.

[Prospectfarms]

... Saturday will be the earliest I could look at it unless I can bribe Steve with cash to get on it heheh (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

No bribe necessary. If this rain ever quits, I will remove the relay to the starter and see what happens. Might even do the DMM test to the battery.
If it ends up being the switch, that is an easy repair. If all years are the same, I should have a spare switch somewhere.

Got to get it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

From memory the switch versions go something like:
1970-71,72,73-74.

The 73 has a little plastic knob sticking out that the 72 does not, but they are otherwise identical. I have in my 72 today a 73 switch with it's appendage removed by 10 seconds of hacksaw. I have no info on the 71's or post 74's.

[Haudiosolutions]

Steve, are you working on it yet? It's only raining a little right now? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

[mburkhart]

I had a similar problem a few weeks ago where my battery was fine, but the starter wasn't kicking in when I turned the key. I cleaned the positive battery terminal and connections there and that fixed it for me.

While I was troubleshooting, I also bypassed the seatbelt relay under the passenger seat (1974+, I think)which can go bad.

[poorsche914]

Steve, are you working on it yet? It's only raining a little right now? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[Drums66]

.......I've had good fortune... with the hot start(relay)starts everytime since
I put it on?...but look for green (corrosion) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)(I like it!)hot start relay!

[Series9]

Recently, I have been finding that high-resistence terminals on the relay board are causing this problem.

I usually unplug and replug both 14-pin plugs on the relay board and see if that fixes it. If it does, you should get in there and clean those contacts because it will happen again.

[Prospectfarms]

Recently, I have been finding that high-resistence terminals on the relay board are causing this problem.

I usually unplug and replug both 14-pin plugs on the relay board and see if that fixes it. If it does, you should get in there and clean those contacts because it will happen again.

Makes sense. Thanks for the tip.

Hot start relays are fine if you need them. But you are just adding a relay to another relay (the solenoid). I've seen so many ignition switches fail on cars with and without additional starter relays, and I've seen a couple of failed relays. So I'm not convinced they help that much.

[Haudiosolutions]

I really hope it's that simple. I'm sure it's something simple and it isn't like I've got a rod sticking through my case but it's annoying none the less. Especially since I'm currently no where near it. I hope the weather holds off on Saturday so I can find the problem if Steve doesn't stumble over it first

[poorsche914]

I may poke around a bit tomorrow if the weather is clear. Will let you know.

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[Haudiosolutions]

I may poke around a bit tomorrow if the weather is clear. Will let you know.

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Thanks Man. I was hoping to drive it to Nashville this weekend but I've long since let go of that idea. Possibly next weekend. More importantly I just need to get it running lol. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[detoxcowboy]

Common and re-occuring issue of failing ignition switches due to an EMF pulse that conducts itself back to the igniton switch from starter every time the car is started eventually arcing out the ignition switch./ I have had same isuue twice aboput once a year; and when I bought my 814 it had that Bosch "hot/Hard Start Relay Ugly Relay Dangling, I ditched the realay bought new harness, starter alternator and battery and ignition switch , happened again! left me stranded at a liquor store without warning. Issue had been resolved and I have had no further issues and my car now starts better than ever.. The key is installing a dfiode rectifier that shunts the 350mv EMF pulse from getting back to your switch..



914 World Post of Solution...

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...w=&st=&

Where I learned and discovered the faulting 914 desighn issue and why I was using a new switch every year..
Bottom of Page

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/m...tarter_diag.htm

[poorsche914]

OK... we are working on this now but while the engine is cold, decided to adjust the valves.
The engine is a 1.7 with dual carbs. Internals are unknown. Strong runner (when it starts).

SITUATION: the valves have apparently been set at .006 in and .008 exhaust
For a stock 1.7 it should be .006 in/ex

QUESTION: should we set at .006/.008 or .006 on all?

Thanks.

[poorsche914]

Start issue "possibly" resolved... found a loose wire that connects to the upper relay. Haven't tried starting it yet since we want to get the valves adjusted.

[Prospectfarms]

Common and re-occuring issue of failing ignition switches due to an EMF pulse that conducts itself back to the igniton switch from starter every time the car is started eventually arcing out the ignition switch./ I have had same isuue twice aboput once a year; and when I bought my 814 it had that Bosch "hot/Hard Start Relay Ugly Relay Dangling, I ditched the realay bought new harness, starter alternator and battery and ignition switch , happened again! left me stranded at a liquor store without warning. Issue had been resolved and I have had no further issues and my car now starts better than ever.. The key is installing a dfiode rectifier that shunts the 350mv EMF pulse from getting back to your switch..



914 World Post of Solution...

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...w=&st=&

Where I learned and discovered the faulting 914 desighn issue and why I was using a new switch every year..
Bottom of Page

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/m...tarter_diag.htm

Any electric coil produces a magnetic field when energized. Whenever a switch opens the circuit to this coil the magnetic field "collapses" producing voltage in the field as a" back-current." If the switch is unprotected, the back current tends to arc across the open terminals creating heat and corrosion and eventually burning the switch. A "snubber" diode placed across the circuit diverts the back current away from the switch protecting it.

A diode is a one-way connection (like a check-valve) With the diode placed correctly across the circuit the back-current has an alternative place to go.

The snubber should be placed as close to the coil as possible. It must be "fast" and of sufficient capacity handle the considerable current produced for a split-second by the collapsing field.

This diagram shows the basic snubber circuit. A resistor is on the positive side of the diode, but this is not usually necessary for most 12 volt circuits. Note the position of the diode, which as has been said places the banded end on the positive side. If reversed you are creating a short-circuit!
 Snubber_diagram.pdf ( 10.25k ) Number of downloads: 112

[poorsche914]

Thanks for all the suggestions.
The non-start problem was a loose wire (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)
This car has definitely had some creative wiring done to it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

So... we set the valves at .006 in and .008 exh since that seems to be what the PO had it set at. Only had to adjust a couple of them that were only slightly loose.
And then we set the timing - which was also dead on already.

Question remains... for a 1.7 that has been modified (don't know what was done. Has dual carbs and runs really strong) should the valves be set at the suggested .006 on both intake and exhaust or should the 2.0 settings be used? (like we did)

We ended up adjusting the engine bay cover and driver door for a better fit/closing.
Took it out for a drive and noticed the clutch released really close to the floor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
Afternoon project will be replacing the clutch cable. Luckily, Derrick has one at his house. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Once it is back on the road, still need to figure out what is causing oil temps to rise at interstate speeds.

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