Brake upgrade, Parking brake Options

[Krank]

I have been thinking about doing the beemer front disk brake upgrade. The only thing that bothers me is the loss of the parking /(cough, cough) emergency brake. I had an idea to look for a motorcycle front disk brake rotor mounted to the axleshaft with a cable operated brake assembly mounted to the tranny (I think there are three useable bolts on the RH side). Anyone play with this idea before?

[Mike Bellis]

You have a parking brake on your front wheels???

[Krank]

This is the mod that you use calipers from a BMW 320i on the front location and move your front calipers to the rear axle. The article is here http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/9...MW_calipers.htm

[Cap'n Krusty]

Just because you CAN do something, doesn't always mean you SHOULD. I think you'll find little, if any, improvement over stock brakes redone right. When all is said and done, the rotors are the limiting factor. Oh, and cost.

Yet another instance of the term "upgrade" being flung about with little or no regard for its meaning.

The Cap'n

[Dave_Darling]

Personally, I think it's the tires that are the limiting factor.

The extra brake caliper as handbrake/e-brake has been talked about a lot, and even done once or twice I think. There was talk of using a mechanical (cable-actuated, no hydraulics) go-kart caliper bolted to the trans, and a rotor sandwiched between the inboard CV and the output flange. I don't know if that actually happened.

There was also talk of some other cable-actuated caliper out on the trailing arm, clamping the regular rotor. Obviously not in the same place as the regular caliper; I think the thought was to have it on the trailing side of the rotor?

But the best brake upgrades are to make sure your stock system is in good working order, with fresh fluid, and that you have decent tires.

--DD

[Krank]

OK, on a scale of 1 to 5 the improvement would be 1-2? There seems to be a lot of discussion on brake upgrade so it would seem the "stock" brakes are lacking. There are quite a few different engine upgrades seemingly requiring a brake upgrade to go with the increased weight. One thing I have not heard of or read is a brake lock up problem. Is it possible to lock up the brakes on a 914 with a stock brake system? I have not been driving a teener for long and I don't mean to doubt anyone. I just want to get correct information.

[Eric_Shea]

Can stock brakes lock up the tire?

[ConeDodger]

OK, on a scale of 1 to 5 the improvement would be 1-2? There seems to be a lot of discussion on brake upgrade so it would seem the "stock" brakes are lacking. There are quite a few different engine upgrades seemingly requiring a brake upgrade to go with the increased weight. One thing I have not heard of or read is a brake lock up problem. Is it possible to lock up the brakes on a 914 with a stock brake system? I have not been driving a teener for long and I don't mean to doubt anyone. I just want to get correct information.

On a scale of 1 to 5 the improvement would be 0 over well maintained stock brakes with good quality pads. Plus, the BMW caliper must be machined to be used on our cars. Not an upgrade at all. THIS is an upgrade:

You can just barely see it but there is an aluminum caliper peeking out from that front Fuchs wheel. 4# lighter than the stock caliper and aluminum gives up heat faster.

[dion9146]

Clean system, good tires, and better pads will do wonders. But at this point, it doesn't sound like you know the limits of the current system. Don't let a poorly bled system trick you into thinking you have bad brakes. And until you upgrade the engine to big power, don't bother with the BMW upgrade. Been there, did that, wasted money.

[DBCooper]

Can stock brakes lock up the tire?

Yes. But I could lock up all four drums of my old Ford F-100 and those brakes sucked, so that can't be the only criteria. I know you can make the 914 brakes fade after 20 minutes of heavy braking coming down out of the mountains, so there's something to be said for vented rotors, too.

[Cap'n Krusty]

Locked up brakes do you very little good.

The Cap'n

[computers4kids]

OK, on a scale of 1 to 5 the improvement would be 1-2? There seems to be a lot of discussion on brake upgrade so it would seem the "stock" brakes are lacking. There are quite a few different engine upgrades seemingly requiring a brake upgrade to go with the increased weight. One thing I have not heard of or read is a brake lock up problem. Is it possible to lock up the brakes on a 914 with a stock brake system? I have not been driving a teener for long and I don't mean to doubt anyone. I just want to get correct information.

On a scale of 1 to 5 the improvement would be 0 over well maintained stock brakes with good quality pads. Plus, the BMW caliper must be machined to be used on our cars. Not an upgrade at all. THIS is an upgrade:

You can just barely see it but there is an aluminum caliper peeking out from that front Fuchs wheel. 4# lighter than the stock caliper and aluminum gives up heat faster.

I have to partially disagree. Orginally, I had good functioning stock front brakes and then moved to BMW320i front brakes and a 19mm master--there was an improvement in overall braking, but not monumental. Then of course I was stopping a heavier teener (SBC). BMW is not realy an upgrade.
Unless you get a pair of BMW calipers cheap, I wouldn't go that direction again...it's only a bandaid.

Recently, I just switched to the calipers I believe Rob was alluding to...aluminum brembos for 3inch struts. There is no comparision to how these work compared to stock or BMW calipers.

I do agree that for a stock car, well maintained stock brakes with some nice pads (i.e. Porterfield) is more than adequate for a street teener.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-4253-1307507092_thumb.jpg)

[Bleyseng]

Going to the 320i front calipers isn't worth it IMHO, now going to Carrera fronts with vented discs is!

[nsr-jamie]

Might as well update or upgrade your whole front end and front brakes with a 911 suspension that most of us do. Its not that big of a job and if you can get the parts for a good price is a nice upgrade plus allows the use of 5 bolt Porsche wheels and adds some value to your car as well...not to mention poser points too

I got mine for very cheap from a 911T car that was rear ended and it made a nice improvement plus you get the slightly heavier torsion bars as well. I upgraded to new Koni shocks, new rotors later on, braided lines and new pads along with a 19mm master and its very nice....also added new BF goodrich tires and that was even better...eventually when I fix some other problems and make more progress I want to upgrade to Eric Shea's 3 inch alloy brake upgrade and some cross drilled rotors when funds allow.

[Michael N]

I wasted money on the BMW brakes before going to the Brembo aluminum calipers. The Brembo calipers is one of the best upgrades I have done on a 914 and I feel money well spent.

[jmill]

If I did it over again I'd stick with 911 struts with 3" caliper spacing and Brembos like Rob and others mentioned. I went with 3.5" and A calipers. I'm hauling around a ton of extra weight with little benefit until I save up the cash for aluminum S calipers. Matching my rears wont be pretty cost wise either.

Eric has a great thread on this. Do a search or someone can post a link.

[Cap'n Krusty]

I have been thinking about doing the beemer front disk brake upgrade. The only thing that bothers me is the loss of the parking /(cough, cough) emergency brake. I had an idea to look for a motorcycle front disk brake rotor mounted to the axleshaft with a cable operated brake assembly mounted to the tranny (I think there are three useable bolts on the RH side). Anyone play with this idea before?

BTW, "Beemer" refers to motorcycles, "Bimmer" to cars. I doubt motorcycle brakes would be much of an "upgrade" for your teener.

The Cap'n

[eric9144]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I have a set of the BMW calipers on the front of my 914 right now...I cant say it was a totally wasted endeavor for a street set up, there was some "mild" improvement over stock...BUT...

A couple things to consider--the brake bias F to R is 'off'--you get more braking on the front than the back, not so noticeable on the street but go do a fast AX or TT and it gets scary fast when you feel like the back is going to come around on you. Also, you're still stuck with the solid rotors and really, that's the deal breaker--you are creating more heat with the front calipers and actually hit the fade point quicker...

The best solutions have been laid out already in this thread, there's lots of ways you can go with this but think long and hard as you're really putting your teener and possibly your life in the hands of the brake set up you choose...

I now have the same setup as Michael N posted above (sitting on my work bench ready to install) which is a 4 lug version of an early 911, vented is the only way to go to get an actual performance increase IMO...

[Eric_Shea]

If your F100 brakes lock up your wheels... their job is done. How could they suck? You would only need a larger contact patch to get better braking once your wheels lock (read: fatter tires).

If you don't know how to drive down a mountain without getting brake fade (in a car that should "never" experience brake fade other than "heavy" track duty) you really shouldn't be driving a 914 down a mountain. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Carrera calipers weigh 9+ frigg'n pounds EACH. I will guarantee you I would "Never" put those on one of my 914's. But wait, it gets better... 24mm Carrera vented rotors add an additional 4lbs. each. Welcome to nearly 20lbs. of additional UNSPRUNG weight to your 2000lb sports car. Guess what, the BMW caliper weighs almost the same! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Upgrade away gang... I'm enjoying the show. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif)

P.S. My thoughts on "Why"people think they need "upgrades": Most of us enjoy modern cars on a daily basis. The wife has an E500 wagon with excellent brakes. My Cayenne has the largest set of calipers ever thrown on a standard road going Porsche (I found a small pony living in my right front). All of these brake systems are well designed and power assisted. Put your big toe on the pedal and the big car stops... really fast

It takes a few minutes to get use to the Cayenne after driving her car... now, imagine getting out of the Cayenne and going to a brake system from 1970, be it their top of the line 1970 914-6/GT model or a lowly (and lovely) 1970 914-4 (which has better brakes than anything in it's class!) Or... plop yourself into a 1970 Ford F-100. THINGS ARE GONNA FEEL DIFFERENT GANG.

Does this mean our brakes suck? All things being equal... NO. Your 2000lb 914 can still stop much faster than the 2012 7000lb. Suburban behind you so... keep that in mind.

Could they be better? Depends. To me, better means "stopping the car faster" and again, I'll go back to -- "If you can lock up your wheels with your current brakes, the answer is NO." Get bigger tires... you'll stop faster. Get better pads that allow you to modulate your pedal almost as well as an anti-lock devise... you'll stop faster. Learn "how" to brake/modulate and... you'll stop faster

Given enough money, time and engineering know-how, I'm sure someone could install my Cayenne calipers on a 914. It still won't stop any faster if the tire is sliding along on the pavement.

[c12croft]

If your F100 brakes lock up your wheels... their job is done. How could they suck? You would only need a larger contact patch to get better braking once your wheels lock (read: fatter tires).

If you don't know how to drive down a mountain without getting brake fade (in a car that should "never" experience brake fade other than "heavy" track duty) you really shouldn't be driving a 914 down a mountain. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Carrera calipers weigh 9+ frigg'n pounds EACH. I will guarantee you I would "Never" put those on one of my 914's. But wait, it gets better... 24mm Carrera vented rotors add an additional 4lbs. each. Welcome to nearly 20lbs. of additional UNSPRUNG weight to your 2000lb sports car. Guess what, the BMW caliper weighs almost the same! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Upgrade away gang... I'm enjoying the show. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif)

P.S. My thoughts on "Why"people think they need "upgrades": Most of us enjoy modern cars on a daily basis. The wife has an E500 wagon with excellent brakes. My Cayenne has the largest set of calipers ever thrown on a standard road going Porsche (I found a small pony living in my right front). All of these brake systems are well designed and power assisted. Put your big toe on the pedal and the big car stops... really fast

It takes a few minutes to get use to the Cayenne after driving her car... now, imagine getting out of the Cayenne and going to a brake system from 1970, be it their top of the line 1970 914-6/GT model or a lowly (and lovely) 1970 914-4 (which has better brakes than anything in it's class!) Or... plop yourself into a 1970 Ford F-100. THINGS ARE GONNA FEEL DIFFERENT GANG.

Does this mean our brakes suck? All things being equal... NO. Your 2000lb 914 can still stop much faster than the 2012 7000lb. Suburban behind you so... keep that in mind.

Could they be better? Depends. To me, better means "stopping the car faster" and again, I'll go back to -- "If you can lock up your wheels with your current brakes, the answer is NO." Get bigger tires... you'll stop faster. Get better pads that allow you to modulate your pedal almost as well as an anti-lock devise... you'll stop faster. Learn "how" to brake/modulate and... you'll stop faster

Given enough money, time and engineering know-how, I'm sure someone could install my Cayenne calipers on a 914. It still won't stop any faster if the tire is sliding along on the pavement.

You mean upgrades like this, along with a 19mm MC on a 4cyl 2.0 is a wasted effort other than for eye candy?