Dragon hill climb,, North Carolina Options

[Randal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZGkhzEwLuw

Now here is one for the folks back East.

To be honest driving that one at 9 tenths would be hairy.

The guy in the Porsche had two wheels off at one point, but saved it. Also think he won.

Counted 5 offs in the results.

[scotty b]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) Not REALLY the Dragon, at least not the truely technical section (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) That was only part that was closed off for " legal " runs a while back. The real dragon is much more ..........................................exciting

[BKLA]

Is it just me or is there a bit too much "sawing" at the wheel going on there? I know there's not that much flex going on in the tires...

Made me uncomfortable watching it....

[jjackson]

Is it just me or is there a bit too much "sawing" at the wheel going on there? I know there's not that much flex going on in the tires...

Made me uncomfortable watching it....

Record run-thinking like that is why we line em up.Most likely the person that had the record-wants next years shot at it.JJackson

[BKLA]

Is it just me or is there a bit too much "sawing" at the wheel going on there? I know there's not that much flex going on in the tires...

Made me uncomfortable watching it....

Record run-thinking like that is why we line em up.Most likely the person that had the record-wants next years shot at it.JJackson

So you are saying he drove like that intentionally just so that he'd be faster the next time (if he transitioned the car smoother)? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Intentional sandbagging? Never happens! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Let's say for shits & giggles that each saw motion cost him a hundredth of a second. I'm guessing probably 2 tenths over the entire run.

Fast car with a good setup can compensate for (some) less than stellar driving input.

Check out his '09 Putnam video. He saws through most of the early race while he is leading. As the race wears on and he starts catching and passing the field, his driving becomes smoother.

No doubt that he has skill.

[jjackson]

Is it just me or is there a bit too much "sawing" at the wheel going on there? I know there's not that much flex going on in the tires...

Made me uncomfortable watching it....

Record run-thinking like that is why we line em up.Most likely the person that had the record-wants next years shot at it.JJackson

So you are saying he drove like that intentionally just so that he'd be faster the next time (if he transitioned the car smoother)? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Intentional sandbagging? Never happens! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Let's say for shits & giggles that each saw motion cost him a hundredth of a second. I'm guessing probably 2 tenths over the entire run.

Fast car with a good setup can compensate for (some) less than stellar driving input.

Check out his '09 Putnam video. He saws through most of the early race while he is leading. As the race wears on and he starts catching and passing the field, his driving becomes smoother.

No doubt that he has skill.

Definitely skilled-I was saying previous record holder can't wait till next year.JJackson
Sandbagging is for golf course wagers, not hill climbs.

[Randal]

Is it just me or is there a bit too much "sawing" at the wheel going on there? I know there's not that much flex going on in the tires...

Made me uncomfortable watching it....

Record run-thinking like that is why we line em up.Most likely the person that had the record-wants next years shot at it.JJackson

So you are saying he drove like that intentionally just so that he'd be faster the next time (if he transitioned the car smoother)? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Intentional sandbagging? Never happens! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Let's say for shits & giggles that each saw motion cost him a hundredth of a second. I'm guessing probably 2 tenths over the entire run.

Fast car with a good setup can compensate for (some) less than stellar driving input.

Check out his '09 Putnam video. He saws through most of the early race while he is leading. As the race wears on and he starts catching and passing the field, his driving becomes smoother.

No doubt that he has skill.

Definitely skilled-I was saying previous record holder can't wait till next year.JJackson
Sandbagging is for golf course wagers, not hill climbs.

In parts of that course he was driving 9 tenths. And his speed was high averaging 75mph for the course, so his top speed, in places, was around 100mph.

Now going at 9 tenths at 100mph on a narrow road, where even a minor mistake will put you into a rock wall or a guard rail does take talent as well as knowledge of the car and the course.

A pretty serious driver.

[stewteral]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZGkhzEwLuw

Now here is one for the folks back East.

To be honest driving that one at 9 tenths would be hairy.

The guy in the Porsche had two wheels off at one point, but saved it. Also think he won.

Counted 5 offs in the results.

The guy needs a GOOD DRIVING SCHOOL!

-Sawing the wheel is continually upsetting chassis set in the corner
-He took way to many corners entering on the INSIDE, better lines would have
made him faster.
-Think SMOOTH like Jenson Button.

Terry

[ottox914]

Hard to know about the driving... inside line might have been the fast line in the end- shorter distance, and with curves coming at you one on top of the other, not as much straight to maximize exit speed. I wondered about the steering corrections. RWD, motor in back, uphill, on the gas, lots of weight transfer, maybe with all that going on the front end was getting light and not gripping as much as it might otherwise- even with hoosiers. Still fun to watch. But not at all as much fun as driving the REAL dragon...

[TurbOH Brad]

OOOHH YEAH!

That video is stomach turning. I LOVE it, and would love to do it someday.

[stewteral]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZGkhzEwLuw

Now here is one for the folks back East.

To be honest driving that one at 9 tenths would be hairy.

The guy in the Porsche had two wheels off at one point, but saved it. Also think he won.

Counted 5 offs in the results.

As I said before, this driver needs a Good Driving School. To prove my point,
compare the 911 driver vs. a BMW driver.
--Note the smoothness and limited steering input
--Note how he consistently moves the car to create the best line through the
next corner.
Now THIS is a guy who knows how to drive!: http://www.tvracer.com/ (video of
13-July-2011.

Best,
Terry

[Cohibra45]

I'm sure all of you have driven hard and 'Yes', smooth is best............All I'll say is that after living and driving those same mountains from southern VA to northern GA, even the smoothest road has frost heaves and undulations that can't be seen from the video.

I suggest that he had to make course corrections mid corner just to maintain car attitude and line. Those roads are just that.....roads used 365 days a year by all types of vehicles including large trucks.

Like I said, I grew up running those roads and it is a blast. Of course I wasn't running a GT3 but the lowly '70 VW Squareback.

[dlestep]

...you may want to compare it to this.

http://youtu.be/Gu2SCBNlrLo

Even though one notices that the driver is sawing at the wheel, take note that
the center of the hood is kept centered to the road...as in both videos
(powerful rear engine and light front-end)

[stewteral]

...you may want to compare it to this.

http://youtu.be/Gu2SCBNlrLo

Even though one notices that the driver is sawing at the wheel, take note that
the center of the hood is kept centered to the road...as in both videos
(powerful rear engine and light front-end)

Dave.

This video further makes my point about sawing the wheel: it is RALLY car steering style when the driver is continually trying to feel the grip level. When off pavement the car is always loose and sliding, thus grip is always changing. However, on pavement, every shake of the wheel CHANGES the "chassis set" in the corner and induces slip-angles (breaking loose). The goal is to be as smooth as possible so one can reach the highest corning speed BEFORE the car starts to slide.

No driving instructor in the racing schools I've taken have EVER proposed anything but SMOOTH steering inputs. On pavement, SMOOTH is FAST.

Terry

[Borderline]

I think it's the nature of the beast. On a race track you have a limited number of turns that you memorize and run repetitively. You learn the course and become smooth. On a hillclimb the course is too long and you don't get enough runs to really learn the course and become smooth. I think the guy was just making minor course corrections while driving close to the limit. FWIW

[dlestep]

...you may want to compare it to this.

http://youtu.be/Gu2SCBNlrLo

Even though one notices that the driver is sawing at the wheel, take note that
the center of the hood is kept centered to the road...as in both videos
(powerful rear engine and light front-end)

Dave.

This video further makes my point about sawing the wheel: it is RALLY car steering style when the driver is continually trying to feel the grip level. When off pavement the car is always loose and sliding, thus grip is always changing. However, on pavement, every shake of the wheel CHANGES the "chassis set" in the corner and induces slip-angles (breaking loose). The goal is to be as smooth as possible so one can reach the highest corning speed BEFORE the car starts to slide.

No driving instructor in the racing schools I've taken have EVER proposed anything but SMOOTH steering inputs. On pavement, SMOOTH is FAST.

Terry

yes, but have you ever experienced the pendulum of early 911 throttle-lift over-steer around a corner? You'd be all assholes and elbows trying to keep it off the guard rail and the embankment too. Keepin' it smooth, late apex, sounds too PCA DE to me...
the 914 suffers less...as shown here : http://youtu.be/4xEEhRE09Jw

[Randal]

I think it's the nature of the beast. On a race track you have a limited number of turns that you memorize and run repetitively. You learn the course and become smooth. On a hill climb the course is too long and you don't get enough runs to really learn the course and become smooth. I think the guy was just making minor course corrections while driving close to the limit. FWIW

You have it exactly right Bill.

In the post above there is a great hill climb video over a very long course. Maybe someone could memorize it (in 10 years) and have smooth inputs all over, but tough. Also the nature of the road is that it's really a change up course; very difficult to get any rhythm going(*). Also there are very few slow corners, so corners are coming at you fast and there in lies the challenge. Going off just about anywhere would destroy a car.

I didn't count the number of corners, but that run has a huge number. Makes me laugh when I think about Cascade Lakes having say 15 real corners and knowing how long it will take to start stepping up to 9 tenths anywhere.

If you could work up to 8 tenths on that (video) course then you'd be doing some excellent driving. To start playing with 9 tenths would take unbelievable talent and car set up. IMHO it would take a huge number of runs to get really fast on that course.

(*) If you've done Thunderhill, more than 4 laps, you can plan your lines and steering inputs way in advance and make it seem smooth, unless you get in trouble and miss your lines then all bets are off.

[SirAndy]

I think the guy was just making minor course corrections while driving close to the limit.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Look at any good rally driver and watch them drive on different surfaces. On a rough or slippery surface, there is no "smooth" steering.
This is not your off the mill nice road-race course with perfect asphalt, this is a real road driven at 9/10.
Without the sawing at those speeds, you'd in the weeds in no time. You constantly need to correct.

Heck, go back and watch the video of the guy at the Nürburgring in the rain that was posted here a week ago and look at him. He was "sawing" the whole time ...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[Randal]

I think the guy was just making minor course corrections while driving close to the limit.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Look at any good rally driver and watch them drive on different surfaces. On a rough or slippery surface, there is no "smooth" steering.
This is not your off the mill nice road-race course with perfect asphalt, this is a real road driven at 9/10.
Without the sawing at those speeds, you'd in the weeds in no time. You constantly need to correct.

Heck, go back and watch the video of the guy at the Nürburgring in the rain that was posted here a week ago and look at him. He was "sawing" the whole time ...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

Another good analysis. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sunglasses.gif)

And if you want to see it real time, come to one of the West Coast hill climbs and bring your machine. It is just something you got to do.

[ottox914]

I think we can all agree that smoother is gooder in general.

I would submit to the collective here that different conditions- ie: road surface, type of car, tires, will require different techniques to be most effective with the cards you are dealt for that day.

Don't think there is one "right" way to do it, just an ongoing challenge to find and use all the traction you have available in a given set of circumstances.

I know in our "small" lot for autox, even our best drivers look to be all "arms and elbows" flying around. They are also some of the deceptively smoothest looking drivers on the larger courses.

I think its part of looking ahead. When you can see farther ahead, you give your computer brain more time to calculate the correct solution. With tighter corners coming up on you quickly on a course you don't have memorized, more corrections will be occurring, and you'll be tossing the car around more.