No spark! Options

[Steve73]

I'm trying to bring a dead 914 back to life. I have done the usual prep work and have hooked up the electrical system. The car turns over strongly but there is no spark! No spark at the plugs, no spark at the coil. I have switched the coil out with one I had laying around but i'm not getting any better results. Could it be the voltage regulator located in the box where the fuel injected controls are? (mine has been converted to dual carbs BTW).

What should I try next?

Thanks in advance!

[corsepervita]

How is the voltage up to the coil? The grounding?
The points?

[TheCabinetmaker]

Condensor

[Prospectfarms]

Unlikely you have two bad coils. A good coil may not show spark if the condenser is bad, the distributor has no continuity, or the points are bad or are not closing properly. With a mechanical distributor, points and coil ignition, it's commonplace to not get spark at plugs or HT coil wire because of some problem with the distributor points, condenser, or terminal connections thereof. The trouble shooting procedure is the same for any old car. The following is my version of the "looking for spark" dance.

Check the current to the coil at the coil+ terminal: Ignition on, test current with a test light or meter between coil+ terminal and ground. If no current at coil+ terminal, trace supply wire back to regulator plate (box full of relays and terminals on left side of firewall) if your car still has it. If it was removed when car converted to carburetors you'll have to trace the wire powering the coil back to its source--ultimately the ignition switch.

If you have juice at coil+, raise just one of the rear wheels and place car in 4th-5th gear. Check if current is passing through the distributor body, condensor and points by testing the negative terminal of the coil to ground while rotating (This feature is unique to lightweight rear wheel, mid or rear engine cars.) the engine. Disconnect the high tension (center) lead from the dist. just to be safe. You should see momentary current at coil- as the rotor turns, opening the points.

If you do not have a test light or meter, you can still check the distributor and points continuity in a similar way by removing the distributor cover and looking for a faint spark at the points every time they open.

If it seems that no current is passing through distributor as you turn the rotor replace points and condenser. If that doesn't help, check to see if the tiny braided ground strap inside the distributor is intact. It provides continuity between the advance plates ("floor") of distributor and the distributor body. Many members of this board, including yours truly, have experienced that ground strap to break, rendering the distributor inoperable. It's about the same diameter as a piece of yarn and approximately 1 1/2" long.

Good luck

[Steve73]

Unlikely you have two bad coils. A good coil may not show spark if the condenser is bad, the distributor has no continuity, or the points are bad or are not closing properly. With a mechanical distributor, points and coil ignition, it's commonplace to not get spark at plugs or HT coil wire because of some problem with the distributor points, condenser, or terminal connections thereof. The trouble shooting procedure is the same for any old car. The following is my version of the "looking for spark" dance.

Check the current to the coil at the coil+ terminal: Ignition on, test current with a test light or meter between coil+ terminal and ground. If no current at coil+ terminal, trace supply wire back to regulator plate (box full of relays and terminals on left side of firewall) if your car still has it. If it was removed when car converted to carburetors you'll have to trace the wire powering the coil back to its source--ultimately the ignition switch.

If you have juice at coil+, raise just one of the rear wheels and place car in 4th-5th gear. Check if current is passing through the distributor body, condensor and points by testing the negative terminal of the coil to ground while rotating (This feature is unique to lightweight rear wheel, mid or rear engine cars.) the engine. Disconnect the high tension (center) lead from the dist. just to be safe. You should see momentary current at coil- as the rotor turns, opening the points.

If you do not have a test light or meter, you can still check the distributor and points continuity in a similar way by removing the distributor cover and looking for a faint spark at the points every time they open.

If it seems that no current is passing through distributor as you turn the rotor replace points and condenser. If that doesn't help, check to see if the tiny braided ground strap inside the distributor is intact. It provides continuity between the advance plates ("floor") of distributor and the distributor body. Many members of this board, including yours truly, have experienced that ground strap to break, rendering the distributor inoperable. It's about the same diameter as a piece of yarn and approximately 1 1/2" long.

Good luck

Thanks Prospect, I have extra points and condensers sitting around, most brand new though they are meant for my 71 bug. I just put all new electrical engine parts in my bug this spring, set the gap for the dwell and timed it. That car has a Bosh 009 distributor which I believe is the same as what is currently in my Porsche. I'll start investigating using your advice. I have the Haynes manual but it's not so good at helping you trouble shoot something that's not obviously wrong.

[Drums66]

......Look at the grounding points, do them
coil ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

[codemasterlax]

i have the same problem with mine not getting spark but ive gone through 2 sets of points and 2 condensors what could be causing me to burn them up

[Prospectfarms]

i have the same problem with mine not getting spark but ive gone through 2 sets of points and 2 condensors what could be causing me to burn them up

I wonder how Steve73 is doing? Rereading his post, I think there is a difference between bosh points for the VW 009, and the Porsche distributor? They look very similar but something tells me there are not quite compatible.

Maybe Codemasterlax could start a new thread with more details. I'd be happy to help chase down that problem since its one of the very few things I feel quite competent to offer advice on with these cars.

[underthetire]

i have the same problem with mine not getting spark but ive gone through 2 sets of points and 2 condensors what could be causing me to burn them up

Aftermarket coils will burn points up quick. The Bosch coils have built in ballast resistors. Also worn dizzy bushings will eat points.

[codemasterlax]

i do have in a bosch coil but wht bushings

[underthetire]

Grab the rotor and try and wiggle it side to side. If it moves it's probably bad. Rebuilt dizzy time.

[codemasterlax]

it does wiggle a lot but could tht also be because its an 009 distributor

[underthetire]

it does wiggle a lot but could tht also be because its an 009 distributor

Nope. ALL dizzys should be tight side to side. You can get a little more life by switching to a Compu-Fire electronic replacement, they are not as sensitive to gap issues. It's probably because it's a 009 it's worn out.

[codemasterlax]

ok what part exactly do i need to replace on the distibutor this is my daily driver and im trying to get it back on the road asap. im gonna be rebuilding it this winter and ill put and electronic ignition in it then

[underthetire]

You would need to disassemble the dizzy, Press the bushings out ( if it even has any) and make/try to find replacements, then press them back in. Re-assemble then on your way. You would need material, and a lathe to make them. Probably easier to put a WTB for a good used T-4 dizzy. 009 is not recommended in a T-4 engine by most here.

[Cap'n Krusty]

And where is he going to find bushings? The wrong bushings are apt to be worse than the old ones. Bosch never sold them for VW/Porsche applications. Besides, that, bushing wear is an overplayed issue, and rarely causes a serious problem. Worn out breaker plates (not in the 009, of course) are of much greater concern, especially their ground strap. Check the following parts, in order. The points. Are they opening and closing and do they have the proper gap? Using an ohm meter attached to the point wire and the distributor body, open and close the points and watch the meter. Ohms, infinity, ohms, infinity, and so on. The timing. Is it close, and are you on the right cylinder? The condenser. Is it shorted out against the body? They rarely fail. I'll bet I haven't changed an average of one a year over the nearly 40 years I've been working on cars professionally. Is the point/condenser wire plugged in to the (-) side of the coil (#1), along with the tach wire? The power wire to the coil. Is it plugged into the (+) side of the coil (#15)? Coil wire to the distributor cap good? You sure? The rotor. Continuity from center to tip? Does it turn when you crank the engine? The cap. No cracks, carbon tracks, obvious nastiness, and a good button in the center?Fix anything that's not right as you encounter it. Report back.

The Cap'n

Report back

[Prospectfarms]

And where is he going to find bushings? The wrong bushings are apt to be worse than the old ones. Bosch never sold them for VW/Porsche applications. Besides, that, bushing wear is an overplayed issue, and rarely causes a serious problem. Worn out breaker plates (not in the 009, of course) are of much greater concern, especially their ground strap. Check the following parts, in order. The points. Are they opening and closing and do they have the proper gap? Using an ohm meter attached to the point wire and the distributor body, open and close the points and watch the meter. Ohms, infinity, ohms, infinity, and so on. The timing. Is it close, and are you on the right cylinder? The condenser. Is it shorted out against the body? They rarely fail. I'll bet I haven't changed an average of one a year over the nearly 40 years I've been working on cars professionally. Is the point/condenser wire plugged in to the (-) side of the coil (#1), along with the tach wire? The power wire to the coil. Is it plugged into the (+) side of the coil (#15)? Coil wire to the distributor cap good? You sure? The rotor. Continuity from center to tip? Does it turn when you crank the engine? The cap. No cracks, carbon tracks, obvious nastiness, and a good button in the center?Fix anything that's not right as you encounter it. Report back.

The Cap'n

Report back

Can't improve on that. (A good way to check the continuity as described is to spin the distributor rotor by jacking one rear wheel and turn it by hand while 5th gear is engaged.)

[underthetire]

And where is he going to find bushings? The wrong bushings are apt to be worse than the old ones. Bosch never sold them for VW/Porsche applications. Besides, that, bushing wear is an overplayed issue, and rarely causes a serious problem. Worn out breaker plates (not in the 009, of course) are of much greater concern, especially their ground strap. Check the following parts, in order. The points. Are they opening and closing and do they have the proper gap? Using an ohm meter attached to the point wire and the distributor body, open and close the points and watch the meter. Ohms, infinity, ohms, infinity, and so on. The timing. Is it close, and are you on the right cylinder? The condenser. Is it shorted out against the body? They rarely fail. I'll bet I haven't changed an average of one a year over the nearly 40 years I've been working on cars professionally. Is the point/condenser wire plugged in to the (-) side of the coil (#1), along with the tach wire? The power wire to the coil. Is it plugged into the (+) side of the coil (#15)? Coil wire to the distributor cap good? You sure? The rotor. Continuity from center to tip? Does it turn when you crank the engine? The cap. No cracks, carbon tracks, obvious nastiness, and a good button in the center?Fix anything that's not right as you encounter it. Report back.

The Cap'n

But this guy asked why he is eating points. A worn dizzy will eat points.
Report back

[Prospectfarms]

And where is he going to find bushings? The wrong bushings are apt to be worse than the old ones. Bosch never sold them for VW/Porsche applications. Besides, that, bushing wear is an overplayed issue, and rarely causes a serious problem. Worn out breaker plates (not in the 009, of course) are of much greater concern, especially their ground strap. Check the following parts, in order. The points. Are they opening and closing and do they have the proper gap? Using an ohm meter attached to the point wire and the distributor body, open and close the points and watch the meter. Ohms, infinity, ohms, infinity, and so on. The timing. Is it close, and are you on the right cylinder? The condenser. Is it shorted out against the body? They rarely fail. I'll bet I haven't changed an average of one a year over the nearly 40 years I've been working on cars professionally. Is the point/condenser wire plugged in to the (-) side of the coil (#1), along with the tach wire? The power wire to the coil. Is it plugged into the (+) side of the coil (#15)? Coil wire to the distributor cap good? You sure? The rotor. Continuity from center to tip? Does it turn when you crank the engine? The cap. No cracks, carbon tracks, obvious nastiness, and a good button in the center?Fix anything that's not right as you encounter it. Report back.

The Cap'n

But this guy asked why he is eating points. A worn dizzy will eat points.
Report back

No condenser or (bad) low resistance condenser burns points. Running a coil without an internal or external resistor burns points. Nothing special about the blue coils. below is some info about testing the internal resister of a coil, courtesy of aircooled.net.


Does a worn coil eat points? Perhaps by oscillating, the "loose" rotor changes the duration of the points (dwell)? I'm not familiar with misadjusted dwell causing point failure but why not?

Is the 009 distributor a Bosch 231 174 009 that was (per: Anders) specified on 1973 2.0 liter 914's, or a copy of the mechanical advance only unit as seen on hundreds of thousands of VW's? (Though Bosch is selling these again) If the latter, then a replacement costs around $60 dollars for the knock off, or $120 for the "genuine" Bosch.

[Steve73]

Prospect Farms Thanks for asking about my 914.

I hope this video illustrates where I stand on getting the thing running (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKwkYPS7kUQ

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)


I just had my brake calipers media blasted and I'm waiting on a re build kit from NAPA (Only $50 for all four corners!!!!)

NAPA seems to sell calipers for only about $60 bucks plus core which seems very good.

I'm about to get it running well and stopping well, Rust is the next issue, but OMG the rust!