Nervous steering.. Normal? Options

[RickS]

With the original suspension, the car was not taught, but steering felt like pretty much any other car. It was not sloppy and not nervous.

Had a complete suspension overhaul, along with a professional corner balance and alignment. Now, the steering is completely nervous and hair trigger. The smallest input and
The car goes with it. At speed in the twisties, I have to corner so precisely it takes the fun out of the car because one moment of slack will put me off the road.

Is this the way the steering is supposed to work? Is it supposed to be hair trigger like that? Would more toe in help or what?

[Mike Bellis]

You just need to re-learn how to drive the high performance suspension.

[messix]

yes it should be like that, it's a sports car.

it could be numbed up a bit by dialing in some toe in.

air pressure could have an affect that could make it feel more "dancey", if the air pressure is up to 35psi try running it down around 26-30.

[RickS]

Yes it is a sports car, but neither my '72 or '73 911s, or my European Capri ever were as nervous. Currently the front tires have 35 psi. I will try lowering them to 30 and if that doesn't work, I will have more toe added. Thx

[messix]

Yes it is a sports car, but neither my '72 or '73 911s, or my European Capri ever were as nervous. Currently the front tires have 35 psi. I will try lowering them to 30 and if that doesn't work, I will have more toe added. Thx

factory recomended 26 front 29 rear with the 175r15 tires.

[SirAndy]

Now, the steering is completely nervous and hair trigger.

Not for a street car. What kind of "professional corner balance and alignment" did you get?
What are the numbers? Toe? Camber? Caster?


For a street setup, you want fairly neutral toe settings front and rear.
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[stewteral]

With the original suspension, the car was not taught, but steering felt like pretty much any other car. It was not sloppy and not nervous.

Had a complete suspension overhaul, along with a professional corner balance and alignment. Now, the steering is completely nervous and hair trigger. The smallest input and
The car goes with it. At speed in the twisties, I have to corner so precisely it takes the fun out of the car because one moment of slack will put me off the road.

Is this the way the steering is supposed to work? Is it supposed to be hair trigger like that? Would more toe in help or what?

Hey RickS,

With your info that your alignment included CORNER WEIGHT balance, I think
you had a RACE SHOP or the like do the work. Something a lot of racers do is set the front toe at TOE-OUT. This helps corner turn-in to be extra sharp when on-track.

A year ago, I was still driving my track car to the track and I had set the front with 3/32" toe out: I found the steering VERY nervous. The car was so active, that I had to DRIVE it every inch down the road. It felt as though I didn't dare take one hand off the wheel, lest an inperfection in the pavement grab the car sending it in a different direction. On track it was fine, but then I'm always hanging on for dear life there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I Reset the toe to 1/16" toe-in and all was smooth, comfortable and happy again.
Now I'm flat towing the car and need some toe-in stability. On Track, I really can't tell any difference.

I'd suggest calling your "professional" and find out what the toe settings are.

BTW: I hope you have gotten the word that setting the rear at 1/8" TOE-OUT to compensate the suspension's design to move to toe-in .100" for each 1" of compression, as in cornering. It will bring the rear alive and reduce understeer.

I hope this helps!

Terry

[dlestep]

check for tire wear, rotate your tires
check front alignment...you may have
too much toe-in for what you are running,
raise the front a little more to remove some of the bump-steer...
and check the wheel balance...
Ensure that your steering rack has no free play spot in the center,
adjust and lubricate it...or replace it.
If you upgraded to 930 style tie rods, you eliminated what absorption
that was built into the system from the factory.
If you are running 50 series tires, you may feel better with 60 series
tires. Borrow a friend's set of 60 series tires and try it out.

If you have mostly driven nose heavy american cars, then you must learn
to drive the mid engined, long wheel base, light front end designed
for .9g stock handling from the factory.

All cars react differently from upgrades...
precise steering to one, is way too responsive to others and they pay the price when entering a corner inboard of the line.

Even after all is perfect at speed, it will suck on the street.
Everything about your car's handling is personal...adapt it to your
style of driving and enjoy...set it at the limit and you will be a nervous
wreck and your hands will become numb.
For those who only drive on the street and go for sunday drives, then don't
waste your money on upgrades, leave it stock and enjoy.

As for me, I am going to enjoy what upgrades I have incorporated and learn
how to drive my car all over again, testing its' limits...or rather learning my
limits...
...this is just my opinion

[Dave_Darling]

Something a lot of racers do is set the front toe at TOE-OUT. This helps corner turn-in to be extra sharp when on-track.

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I'd bet this is most or all of the OP's problem.

BTW: I hope you have gotten the word that setting the rear at 1/8" TOE-OUT to compensate the suspension's design to move to toe-in .100" for each 1" of compression, as in cornering. It will bring the rear alive and reduce understeer.

I wouldn't do this. I had a 914 with "some" toe-out in the rear, and the tail end was too lively. Add to that the fact that toe-out is a positive-feedback-inducing setup (toe out means the tail wants to step out, which leads to a larger toe angle, which leads to more stepping-out, which...) and you have sub-optimal behavior.

In fact, I would recommend front (static) toe-out long before rear (static) toe-out! Particularly for a street car, I do not feel it is safe.

--DD

[SirAndy]

Particularly for a street car, I do not feel it is safe.

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For a street setup, setting the rear toe to zero is a good place to start.

[RickS]

The tires are 205 60x15s, Yoko Avids - with 1000 miles on them. Seem to be very grippy even though the tread pattern is pretty conventional - but wanted them for wet driving.

Good 'get' that the alignment was setup by a race shop. There is no such thing as a moment of slack since the car will change direction with the slightest input. I would hate to have a sneezing attack in a corner at speed.

The suspension is all Elephant Street Track 1 polybronze - yeah I was feeling really flush a couple of years ago - but after upgrading to a Carrera 5 lug setup, I had it realigned and balanced and then the insanity began. So I will see if the shop has the original specs before they worked their ahem.... magic. Maybe it is a combo of grippy tires, since the old ones were utter crap, and the alignment.

Thanks for all the feed back - it may just help keep me out of the weeds.

[eric9144]

It's all pretty much been said in this thread already...

I will say however, that my 'stock-ish' front end is very solid and predictable, yet nimble and far from scary or twitchy.

I can take my hands off the wheel at speed on the freeway and she tracks straight as an arrow...

You're teener's steering shouldn't be a white knuckle experience.

[toolguy]

IMHO, the best place for you to start is find out exactly what the current settings are. . . not what the 'speed guys' think they did, but what it is actually set at now . .see what they did and how much it is off the factory specs . . . . even with P-cars I've had set up mostly for the track, they still drive great on the street. .maybe a little too stiff, but the steering is predictable while being responsive . I agree with most of the others. . . sounds exactly like too much toe out. .but caster and camber will affect straight ahead handling and negative camber is not good other than going around a curve. . . . . I never run toe out. . . just a slight bit of toe in, like 10 minutes . . .toe out in a straight line made my cars wander as the tires try to follow the road surface too much . . .I had a near disaster with a camber experiment once . . hit a big dip that set the suspension to bottom and the car immediately became unstable . . be careful, you can made dangerous settings that aren't apparent at slower speeds.

And exactly where are you driving you 914. On the street and I want comfortable, predictable handling. . .. . the corner balance will help everywhere for the better, but if you want the car to handle a go cart, I've found that a lower center of gravity, stiff suspension, balanced sway bars and Koni's go a longer way to making a great handling car than any alignment tricks . . I have found that once I get the car to stay flat and predictable, I look at the tires to pick up better track times. .

So what happens if you let go of the wheel on a flat smooth surface ?? . . Remember toe out should pull the car side to side. . toe in pushes the wheels to a common center and the car go straight when you let go of the wheel . . . I can't imagine why I'd run toe out when it makes the car unstable in a straight line . . hitting top speed on a track straightaway is not where I want any steering surprises . . . bad things happen way too fast. . . and in reality, toe out really has never made a noticeable difference for me in the time taken to get around corners on a slower slalom track either . . ; I've tried all sorts of things to get better track times, and I'll admit that was 30-40 years ago, but what worked then still works now. . Take it from an old guy, the laws of gravity and force haven't changed that much. . .

I haven't see it said here, but with rear engine Porsche's, a great deal of track corner steering is with the right foot. . . Most of my time trial days were spent in early 911's and a dozen 914's, and you learn real quick -never back off the gas when the rear end starts to come around . . . turn into the skid and easy on the gas. .

[Drums66]

....it's pretty much been said but...........good set of tires won't hurt (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)
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