Autocross tire thoughts, Here's something for you to ponder Options

[PeeGreen 914]

So speaking with Jeff K last night we were talking about tires. I mentioned what my plans were and talked a little about contigencies. I asked what his thought were on tires for prepared classes. This is direct from him

In my experience, the Goodyear is the fastest tire out there. The Avon is second and Hoosier is third. I use to be a contract driver with Hoosier but after doing much testing I found Goodyear to be better and willing to do what it takes to change.

So for my class I will be going with Goodyear.

What are your thoughts on this?

[BMXerror]

My opinion on this is, if you run at a nationally competitive level, contingencies don't even put a dent in the true cost of racing. So go with the best product out there, and if you can defray some costs by using said product, great.
I personally have never done testing on any slicks. However I've heard a couple others come to the same conclusion as Jeff did. I also gather that Goodyears are somewhat hard to get. As in, it's tough to find a dealer, and they don't always have what you need in stock. Plus no contingencies.
Mark D.

[grantsfo]

I think Good Year is paying him well.

Good Year sucks at providing regular supply. Hmmm he was running Avons in WA? ...because Good Year couldn't supply him tires?

Remember he is a So Cal dude running mostly warm weather on cement at El Toro. If that's what you plan to run yes definitely Good Year in softest compound you can find.

Avon soft compounds kicks butt in cool weather. He was struggling at cold Marina on Good Years that usually hook up at other venues. Ask yourself how my just completed Boxster with first time SCCA driver on cool San Diego day was top time in FP class in 2010 with Brit, Toby, etc on Hoosiers. Can you say Avon? We could drive first half all out.

I do like Good Years too. Good year has best construction. It's a toss up on who has best compounds. I haven't driven anything that can match Avon a15 compound into first few turns in cold weather.

This post has been edited by grantsfo: Aug 16 2011, 09:27 PM

[BKLA]

If cost is no object and I wanted to win in the PNW, Avons - Hands down.

[J P Stein]

Could one expect any other answer from a contract driver? Yes, after the Nats the results will come in. It looked to me as if there was some cherry picking of Goodyear shod cars at the SD NT & AVONS were on Kissiels car at Packwood....cause HE couldn't get any Goodyears?.....or was he testing? I have never had any trouble getting Hoosiers.

GRMs testing of R specs still finds Hoosier on top...or so I've read on the net. You pays your money & takes your chances.

Tires are a major expense when one buys 2-3 sets per year considering one gets 30-40 passes out of them. That don't take long in a 2 driver car at the pointy end of the field whee 2 drivers are the norm. Radials are well over 300 bucks a pop, but last longer I'm told. If you show up at a "big deal" event on old tires you may well get your hat handed to you......unless you have a large advantage over your competition. AVONS are just as expensive and limited in available compounds/sizes in the USA.....& no contingencies.

I'm told that Goodyear now offers contingencies equal to Hoosier so there is no reason to hang with Hoosier.....but most will, I think. Brit is going with R75 rears & R25 fronts.....Hoosier radials......we shall see how this works....pricey SOBs, but he only had to buy one tire. This makes 10-12 freebie tires for him. Not bad for a 40 year old car.....eh. Grant? How many have you won?

[PeeGreen 914]

As a contract driver you would expect to hear him praise his tire sure. However, he came from being a Hoosier contract driver and liked Goodyear better. I understand it isn't good when their contract drivers can't get their tires but shit happens. For someone who runs as much as he does I wouldn't expect him to blow smoke on this. He wants to win and go as fast as he can. Cost of tires means nothing to him so why would he go to anything but what he feels is the best?

[J P Stein]

I ain't gonna argue with you, believe what you want Buy the goodyears.

[PeeGreen 914]

Why does everything have to be an argument with you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

This was more about what others have experienced. Jeff is one guy who drives a lot and has tried many different types of tires. Grant, Bret and Mark added good info on what they have seen and what they have experienced. That is what I want to hear.

I have only run Hoosiers and Kumhos on a 914 so I can only speak to those. I was very impressed by the difference from the V710 to the A6. But to find that in someone's opinion that the A6 isn't even that great is very interesting to me and I can't wait to try something else out.

I know you have a lot of experience on the Cantis. It will be interesting to hear how Britain like the Hoosiers.

[J P Stein]

You asked for "thoughts" and got em'......then defended your own conclusions in response.
That has the makings of an argument.
I've had many "discussions" about tires with many folks but it's tough to have a discussion with you because all your experience with slicks is hearsay.

I ran cantis in front only ( tho you prolly didn't notice) as the alternatives are few.
With the freebies & some other input, things have changed.....hopefully for the better. It came down to "they can't be can't worse but maybe much better." I don't think Brit is married to any tire, but when you buy some you are ....till they wear out.

[PeeGreen 914]

With the cost of them it is nice to have those go before you and let you know. I wish I had the budget to go out and buy whatever (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[PeeGreen 914]

You asked for "thoughts" and got em'......then defended your own conclusions in response.
That has the makings of an argument.
I've had many "discussions" about tires with many folks but it's tough to have a discussion with you because all your experience with slicks is hearsay.

I defended the driver and his opinion after you attacked his feedback. That's all. This is the issue I have with your comments JP. You always try to attack the person that has an opinion that differs from yours. I think some of your input is very good but then I don't agree with all of it. I'm not going to bash you on what I don't agree on because I don't think it is polite to do when someone is simply giving feedback on their experience. Experience can save thousands of dollars and for most of us that is BIG.

[Joe Ricard]

What car are you going to run slicks on? Certainly not the one pictured in your avatar.

[PeeGreen 914]

Well, that car in my avitar has had a little work done (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It is going to be my GP car. I have a feeling I am going to be killed by Civics but we will see. I figured it would be fun to try. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[Chris Pincetich]

Regarding pondering of thoughts related to competitive sponsorship:
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
You NEVER talk smack about your sponsor unless you wish to never get their support again. When I raced pro mountainboards (I rode NPD, get it, "chris NPD rider") I saw many folks who raced non-sponsor gear, and in public it was "oh, my other one broke, woops I gotta use this" but later over beers they reveal the non-sponsored item is better.

I have read here and elsewhere Jeff K's affection for Goodyear. If he is indeed receiving anything from them, then I would add several grains of salt, or pounds, to his tire advice.

It's hard to ignore what the fastest racers are doing and the gut reaction is to emulate and copy. Objective data for racing is hard to come by. Winners have their secrets. I like the GRM articles. I like these forums, usually. I wish tire "science" wasn't so wishy washy between brands and the "data" available was all we needed.

Good luck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[PeeGreen 914]

Regarding pondering of thoughts related to competitive sponsorship:
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
You NEVER talk smack about your sponsor unless you wish to never get their support again. When I raced pro mountainboards (I rode NPD, get it, "chris NPD rider") I saw many folks who raced non-sponsor gear, and in public it was "oh, my other one broke, woops I gotta use this" but later over beers they reveal the non-sponsored item is better.

I have read here and elsewhere Jeff K's affection for Goodyear. If he is indeed receiving anything from them, then I would add several grains of salt, or pounds, to his tire advice.

It's hard to ignore what the fastest racers are doing and the gut reaction is to emulate and copy. Objective data for racing is hard to come by. Winners have their secrets. I like the GRM articles. I like these forums, usually. I wish tire "science" wasn't so wishy washy between brands and the "data" available was all we needed.

Good luck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

I hear you there. That's why I like to bounce thoughts off others before I do things. I have spent more than I care to admit building cars and other things. However, thinking how much more it would have cost had I not taken advice from those who have been there and done that would have been at least tripple...if not more.

We have some awesome people on this board who are great for this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[jjackson]

Hoosier has supported autox for a long time now-I really appreciate their product.
Ran Good Year cantilevers a long time ago- and had trouble finding tires several times-
Have also experienced similar frustrations with Hoosiers.
Mounting up a new set of Hoosiers for Nats now.The previous two sets, were also contingency tires.This year we have a tire budget of $0.00.Contingency is cool!
That being said,we have had more $4000.00 tire budget years than not.
Jeff K-fastest fendered mod in the country-Good Year
John T-fastest prepared car in the country last year-Hoosier

Mounting up a free set-=Hoosiers are faster!

JJackson

[grantsfo]

Could one expect any other answer from a contract driver? Yes, after the Nats the results will come in. It looked to me as if there was some cherry picking of Goodyear shod cars at the SD NT & AVONS were on Kissiels car at Packwood....cause HE couldn't get any Goodyears?.....or was he testing? I have never had any trouble getting Hoosiers.

GRMs testing of R specs still finds Hoosier on top...or so I've read on the net. You pays your money & takes your chances.

Tires are a major expense when one buys 2-3 sets per year considering one gets 30-40 passes out of them. That don't take long in a 2 driver car at the pointy end of the field whee 2 drivers are the norm. Radials are well over 300 bucks a pop, but last longer I'm told. If you show up at a "big deal" event on old tires you may well get your hat handed to you......unless you have a large advantage over your competition. AVONS are just as expensive and limited in available compounds/sizes in the USA.....& no contingencies.

I'm told that Goodyear now offers contingencies equal to Hoosier so there is no reason to hang with Hoosier.....but most will, I think. Brit is going with R75 rears & R25 fronts.....Hoosier radials......we shall see how this works....pricey SOBs, but he only had to buy one tire. This makes 10-12 freebie tires for him. Not bad for a 40 year old car.....eh. Grant? How many have you won?

Lets correct fairy tales from the autocross tire rookie JP.

Avons are available in many more sizes and compounds typically used in AX than any tires from Hoosier and Good Year in the US. You just have to order from their distributors and there is some leadtime if you want to wait for container that comes about once a quarter. You can pay for air freight if you are in a hurry.

Again on Avons they are very specialized tire in soft compounds that clearly work best in cold and damp weather. If you are running warmer temps and Good Year and Hoosier have your tire in stock they are clear choice. Down side no formal contingencies but I bet if you were to speak to key Avon people and you were good you could get something. I got a discount to try them.

But truly I think most will find its not what brand of slick to use. Its more what is available in your size and compound requirement. Hoosier and Good Year have been discontinuing many of their soft compound tires in sizes most of us 914 guys would use. I'm not a fan of canti's unless you gain a classing advantage using them. They are really a rotten AX tire.

Hoosier is popular due to ease of availability and ease of contingency payouts and much better payouts than Good Year. Good Year only offers 2 tires to 1st place vs 4 from Hoosier and Hoosier awards tires to 2nd and 3rd too! Clear why Hooiser is choice of amatuer AXer's you get lots of tires if you are good. And honestly if you are good there isnt enough difference to justify losing out on double the tires and a chance for tires if you place second or third in a national level event.

Note on the GRM DOT R test they clearly stated they thought they would possibly see differnt results from Good Year AC compound in colder weather and with more time on the tire. They didnt reveal much in the way of alignment settings etc. In talking with Roger K he sees this all the time when a new tire comes out. Takes time to figure out optimal setup etc. I wouldnt count out Good Year in the fight for DOT tire. We saw several cars on Good Year DOT's in San Diego take out Hoosier clad cars. I tend to focus on real results rather than intenet rumors like our freind JP does. But I still think A6 is awesome tire - and I do see A6 as a viable alternative to slicks as operating temps of the a6 compound are superior to most slick compounds. Just watch results from Nationals in prepared classes where cars are using A6's. My car isnt the only one on A6's in Prepared.

JP the "modern" Boxster I built has already won several tires in the past 2 months. At this rate we will have grabbed 10 in the 6 first months it has run Hoosier a6's. Brit has spent 5 years in the car and only won 10 tires? Yikes! I thought for sure a "national" class car like that would be winning 10 per year easily? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) Especially given it runs in a "soft" region. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I'm with JJ if you get lots of free tires from Hoosier thats the tire to run.

This post has been edited by grantsfo: Aug 17 2011, 06:33 PM

[PeeGreen 914]

Yes, free is best (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

Interesting observations and point Grant. I am hearing from many people almost exactly what you are saying.

You have to wonder why some of these tire manufactures don't have tires readily available. They may sell more that way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[grantsfo]

Yes, free is best (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

Interesting observations and point Grant. I am hearing from many people almost exactly what you are saying.

You have to wonder why some of these tire manufactures don't have tires readily available. They may sell more that way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Good year focuses on race series that generate volume sales. If prepared classes stuck to some standard sizes we could likely go to Good Year and make special order. They told me 300 tires is minimum order.

[J P Stein]

"The modern Boxster " that you built didn't win shit. When taken over by a guy *that actually knows what he is doing*, it became somewhat of a success.... a couple of regional wins against small fields.....smaller than our local SCCA weekends events.

You couldn't even get a TTOD with any of your cars against the local "wine & cheese" crowd. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)