D-jet MegaSquirt&Spark system, Show Stock MSII system in D-jet box Options

[kertwerks]

Hello Group,
My name is Kurt and I love 914's and older 912's.
I have a product I've made for my girlfriends Volvo 1800 that might interest some of the members of your list.
I can offer a Megasquirt&spark engine management systems the modifies the D-jet distributor and replaces the FI timing cam and points with a magnetic trigger wheel and hall effect sensor. it dupicate the D-jet system to Show Stock Quality.
An O2 sensor bung in the exhaust and a vacuum line are the only thing to be added to your car.
I've set up an album on my fliker page here is a link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kertwerks/set...157627511841022 You can e0mail me of list @ kertwerks@mindspring.com
Kurt

[ConeDodger]

Kind of like this? Bill has been doing this with SDS for years.

[ConeDodger]

cool and innovative though... Lots of Megasquirt guys here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mike Bellis]

What's the price point for the complete 914 system? This is a great idea with the wideband O2 option. I think all T4 FI guys could use this. If you have it set up with an accurate VE table and maps for the stock motors that would be even better. I think a member here was considering marketing a stealth type system. Don't know if he ever did.

[kertwerks]

Group,
Sorry I haven't posted anything on the Stealth System for a while. Death in the family and problems with triggering signals in the Dizzy sensor created some delays in getting the Volvo D-jet system completed.

The first system for Volvo 1800's and 140 series is being fine tuned now to provide a complete Plug and Play system. Then will be going to Oregon to be installed and reviewed by one of the top Volvo builders.

The Megasquirt is a far superior system to the SDS unit and my system offers mappable electronic spark via input thru the tach without affecting the reading.

TunerStudio now offers live analizer that can map you fuel map and re-adjust or not via the user.
My system will come with the full version of Tuner Studio w/Live Analizer, fuel and spark maps and everything needed to install, start and tune you car except your laptop.

For the 914 group I would need some minor assistance to modify the harness (ie.I need a harness to duplicate) and some simple changes to setup.

My system should only require a vacuum line and installation of the new harness, TPS and dizzy, the WB O2 controller, fast idle system and ECU are all housed within the D-jet ECU box.

I'm hoping for a PnP system that will provide everything for at or below $2000.00.

I can be e-mailed at kertwerks@mindspring.com if anyone has any questions or has any used or inop TPS units.
thanks to the group for their interest.

Kurt

[Mike Bellis]

PM Jeff Bowlsby. He is the stock FI harness guru. He rebuilds the factory harness to like new condition. If he can't help...

[ClayPerrine]

Funny, I was thinking about this very same subject yesterday while in the garage working on the BMW.

Why not mount the megasquirt map sensor remotely inside the old MPS housing? It would look a lot more stock than a vacuum line running to the computer.

Also, the 914 has the relays on the relay board that trigger the ECU and fuel pump. Those could be reused also.

Just thinking..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

[bam914]

Hey. That's my ECU picture. Yep Bill does awesome work. He did that system for my race 914. That was a fuel only system. It ran flawless.

[kertwerks]

Clay,

Why not mount the megasquirt map sensor remotely inside the old MPS housing? It would look a lot more stock than a vacuum line running to the computer.

MSII uses a 2.5 bar MAP sensor mounted on the PCB of the ECU so there is no need to mount on anywhere else. False harness connection to the MAP sensor is built into the harness though inop, it is there for the Volvo guys that want to show in stock class. On the 1800 a vacuum line could be split off and run it under the intake to the firewall

Also, the 914 has the relays on the relay board that trigger the ECU and fuel pump. Those could be reused also.

The Volvo Stealth system uses the Volvo relays for FI, Fuel Pump mounted on the pass side firewall.

Just thinking..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)
[/quote]

[kertwerks]

Hey. That's my ECU picture. Yep Bill does awesome work. He did that system for my race 914. That was a fuel only system. It ran flawless.

Bam,
The system in you car looks good. I don't do anything to the ECU box other then clean the dirt off it as the 1800 guys seem to think the patina'd look of the zinc plated case is more stock looking.
I've worked with a few SDS systems and one of the Volvo guys used to make a similar system with MS I, that was a fuel only system. Did you use the factory dizzy trigger for the FI?.
The biggest problem with the MSII stealth system was getting the timing position of the trigger wheel and sensor in the dizzy alinged properly with the rotor position to the cap.
The earlier systems I built for a track car is likely moving to COP in the near future(another advantage of MSII).

[JamesM]

With a minor change to the MS injector circuit this can be done using the stock wiring harness and modifying nothing if you are going fuel only. Spark obviously requires dizzy modifications or a trigger wheel.

I have a board mocked up at the moment that integrates the injector circuit change and a couple other modification and solders directly to the stock d-jet ECU connector. Much easier then doing all the wiring to adapt to a stock MS system. Project has been on hold for a while now as life has been keeping me to busy but if you are intrested I can send you a PCB when i get a batch produced. would be nice to have some extra people testing it out.

Hello Group,
My name is Kurt and I love 914's and older 912's.
I have a product I've made for my girlfriends Volvo 1800 that might interest some of the members of your list.
I can offer a Megasquirt&spark engine management systems the modifies the D-jet distributor and replaces the FI timing cam and points with a magnetic trigger wheel and hall effect sensor. it dupicate the D-jet system to Show Stock Quality.
An O2 sensor bung in the exhaust and a vacuum line are the only thing to be added to your car.
I've set up an album on my fliker page here is a link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kertwerks/set...157627511841022 You can e0mail me of list @ kertwerks@mindspring.com
Kurt

[JamesM]

Can you provide more information on your dizzy setup?

[ClayPerrine]

[quote name='kertwerks' date='Feb 5 2012, 10:24 AM' post='1618663']
Clay,

Why not mount the megasquirt map sensor remotely inside the old MPS housing? It would look a lot more stock than a vacuum line running to the computer.

MSII uses a 2.5 bar MAP sensor mounted on the PCB of the ECU so there is no need to mount on anywhere else. False harness connection to the MAP sensor is built into the harness though inop, it is there for the Volvo guys that want to show in stock class. On the 1800 a vacuum line could be split off and run it under the intake to the firewall

Also, the 914 has the relays on the relay board that trigger the ECU and fuel pump. Those could be reused also.

The Volvo Stealth system uses the Volvo relays for FI, Fuel Pump mounted on the pass side firewall.

Just thinking..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)
[/quote]
[/quote]

I know where the map sensor mounts on a megasquirt. I have one I am putting on my six. I was just thinking that it could be remotely mounted in the MPS housing, therefore you don't have a vacuum line to hide in the harness.

[kertwerks]

[quote name='JamesM' date='Feb 5 2012, 11:42 AM' post='1618818']
With a minor change to the MS injector circuit this can be done using the stock wiring harness and modifying nothing if you are going fuel only. Spark obviously requires dizzy modifications or a trigger wheel.

James,
First, I'd be courious how you plan to use the stock TPS, I take stock TPS units and strip them to metal and have a Hundyi accent TPS assy presure bonded to the plate so it fits with the stock cover and plug. On the D-jet system the TPS acts simply as an accelerator pump to compensate until the MAP (hand grenade) vains catch up with the vacuum applied to it (note the car WILL run with the TPS unplugged).
Second, Are you reversing the fuel pump relay signal (the D-jet signal to the fuel pump is a negitive signal).

Also, when you start trying to work with the system as it is set up as D-jet wiring you'll learn all the little bitches trying to run the injectors as HiZ, Bosch added a resistor network to the heat sink of the ECU to make them appear that way to the ECU but the injectors are only 1.5-2.3 ohms and run much better at 70% in the PWM circuit in megasquirt programming.

DIY Autotune builds some PnP adapter units for some of the more comon applications but nthing they offered could be adapted to a system as archaic as D-jet.

I've converted 3 d-jet Volvo 1800's and 1 122 wagon that got a B-20 engine swap. The 122 is a daily driver and runs really well. All were done with the MS relay boards and external triggering rather then the new system that utiizes all the factory relays and sensors and really does look like a stock system with the exception of the O2 sensor on the exhaust that plugs into the side of the ECU case at the bottom of the heat sinc.


With regards to Bam's question about the Dizzy. What I do is take a D-jet dizzy and completly disassemble it. I remove the mechanical advance and mounting plate as well as the FI points from the FI points plate.
I mount a Hall Effect Sensor on the FI points plate and machine a 2" disc with 4, 3/16" magnets mounted in it and drilled to recieve the advance pins of the rotor shaft in the approiate position then press it onto the shaft, (the sensor and trigger wheel were the cause of most of the delays as transient noise in the dizzy was an issue that required a special order sensor because of case size needed to fit within the dizzy case and still be removable with FI points plate for service.
At this point you have a dizzy that is direct drive from the cam w/no advance. The spark signal normally sent from the points is an easy change over, simply unplug the trigger wire from the dizzy to the input at the tach. Plug in the spark trigger wire from the MS harness to the back of the tach in its place and, Bam mappable spark.

I'll keep the group informed on dyno results and progress.

Kurt

[JamesM]

This is more then a plan I have, I first put MS on a d-jet system back in 2005 and have been experimenting and tweaking things ever since. With my latest incarnation I was toying with the same idea as you of producing a totally stealth solution, one that would be plug and play to the point where you could just plug it in to an existing d-jet solution and go. I had a long thread going on it about 2 years ago, life has delayed things a bit though with a computer crash/data recovery, switching jobs and a new baby girl, been pretty busy.

there are some pics in that thread though if you want to take a look.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...05890&st=60
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...5890&st=100

To answer your questions though... The stock d-jet TPS is unuseable with MS. One of my goals was to eliminate the need for all the d-jet pieces that are getting expensive and harder to come by, TPS, trigger points, MPS, cold start injector. Initally for the TPS I did the same as you and gutted a stock one and replaced the innards. I realized a few things with this method though. First from a production standpoint this would be a pain to do for every build. Second, while the TPS is nice to have with Megasquirt it is unneeded. You can jumper the TPS circuit in MS with a resistor and run without it. You will lose Flood Clear mode and TPS in your datalogs but you can still have accel enrichment by running MAP based and leave the stock sensor in place for looks.

As for the the Fuel pump circuit, the 914s fuel pump relay is activated by grounding the accoicated pin at the ECU. If you are not using the MS relay board then it is the same operation with MS, just plug the FP relay pin from the d-jet harness to the FP relay pin on the MS ECU and you are good to go. I would need to go find my notes on exactly which pins they are.

I dont trust PWM, seems most peoples failures with MS are related to it. I chose to go the same route as Bosch and run resistors in the circuit. I had initially used 10ohm 25W aluminum cased ones and in later builds switched to using the resistors in the injector circuit from the stock d-jet ECU as they were alreday mounted so nicely in the case. Think i will go back to the aluminum cased ones though as I have found there is a bit of variance in the stock resistors and i prefer consistancy.

What are you doing with the dizzy sounds like a lot of work for what is still just a 4 point pickup, I was hopeing you found a way to get something more like a toothed wheel in there. In my auto-X car I just locked the advance weights and plates and run a pertronx with a pullup resistor, fuel only builds i use a totally stock dizzy. Some people have said that running ignition with a 4 point pickup can cause unstable timming but i have yet to encounter a problem. Ideally though, next time the engine comes out I think i will switch over to a trigger wheel on the crank that one of the guys here produces.


[quote name='kertwerks' date='Feb 5 2012, 07:38 PM' post='1619134']
[quote name='JamesM' date='Feb 5 2012, 11:42 AM' post='1618818']
With a minor change to the MS injector circuit this can be done using the stock wiring harness and modifying nothing if you are going fuel only. Spark obviously requires dizzy modifications or a trigger wheel.

James,
First, I'd be courious how you plan to use the stock TPS, I take stock TPS units and strip them to metal and have a Hundyi accent TPS assy presure bonded to the plate so it fits with the stock cover and plug. On the D-jet system the TPS acts simply as an accelerator pump to compensate until the MAP (hand grenade) vains catch up with the vacuum applied to it (note the car WILL run with the TPS unplugged).
Second, Are you reversing the fuel pump relay signal (the D-jet signal to the fuel pump is a negitive signal).

Also, when you start trying to work with the system as it is set up as D-jet wiring you'll learn all the little bitches trying to run the injectors as HiZ, Bosch added a resistor network to the heat sink of the ECU to make them appear that way to the ECU but the injectors are only 1.5-2.3 ohms and run much better at 70% in the PWM circuit in megasquirt programming.

DIY Autotune builds some PnP adapter units for some of the more comon applications but nthing they offered could be adapted to a system as archaic as D-jet.

I've converted 3 d-jet Volvo 1800's and 1 122 wagon that got a B-20 engine swap. The 122 is a daily driver and runs really well. All were done with the MS relay boards and external triggering rather then the new system that utiizes all the factory relays and sensors and really does look like a stock system with the exception of the O2 sensor on the exhaust that plugs into the side of the ECU case at the bottom of the heat sinc.


With regards to Bam's question about the Dizzy. What I do is take a D-jet dizzy and completly disassemble it. I remove the mechanical advance and mounting plate as well as the FI points from the FI points plate.
I mount a Hall Effect Sensor on the FI points plate and machine a 2" disc with 4, 3/16" magnets mounted in it and drilled to recieve the advance pins of the rotor shaft in the approiate position then press it onto the shaft, (the sensor and trigger wheel were the cause of most of the delays as transient noise in the dizzy was an issue that required a special order sensor because of case size needed to fit within the dizzy case and still be removable with FI points plate for service.
At this point you have a dizzy that is direct drive from the cam w/no advance. The spark signal normally sent from the points is an easy change over, simply unplug the trigger wire from the dizzy to the input at the tach. Plug in the spark trigger wire from the MS harness to the back of the tach in its place and, Bam mappable spark.

I'll keep the group informed on dyno results and progress.

Kurt
[/quote]

[JamesM]

Another thing i did was to wire the MS serial port to a 1/16 audio jack and use the Innovate serial cable for the MS tuning cable. This way the you dont have to cut the D-jet case for the 9-pin port, you can just drill a small hole for the audio jack.

[kertwerks]

James,

"To answer your questions though... The stock d-jet TPS is unuseable with MS. One of my goals was to eliminate the need for all the d-jet pieces that are getting expensive and harder to come by, TPS, trigger points, MPS, cold start injector. Initally for the TPS I did the same as you and gutted a stock one and replaced the innards. I realized a few things with this method though. First from a production standpoint this would be a pain to do for every build. Second, while the TPS is nice to have with Megasquirt it is unneeded. You can jumper the TPS circuit in MS with a resistor and run without it. You will lose Flood Clear mode and TPS in your datalogs but you can still have accel enrichment by running MAP based and leave the stock sensor in place for looks".

I don't totally agree with not using TPS input for the same reason I added MSII with closed loop system. The more inputs the EMS has the better&faster it can adjust and compensate for changing conditions. Why add a O2 input then remove one of the exsisting ones? Yes it's a bit of a pain to mod the stock TPS but the Volvo community was it to look totally stock for shows. I have an aluminum plate that just mounts a Accent TPS on it but doesn't look stock.

"As for the the Fuel pump circuit, the 914s fuel pump relay is activated by grounding the accoicated pin at the ECU. If you are not using the MS relay board then it is the same operation with MS".

I'll have to go and double check my notes I know it works but I added a fuse for it in the D-jet case, as well as fuses for injector outputs, O2 controller and Fast idle solenoid.
How did they handle fast idle on the 914?

"I dont trust PWM, seems most peoples failures with MS are related to it. I chose to go the same route as Bosch and run resistors in the circuit. I had initially used 10ohm 25W aluminum cased ones and in later builds switched to using the resistors in the injector circuit from the stock d-jet ECU as they were alreday mounted so nicely in the case. Think i will go back to the aluminum cased ones though as I have found there is a bit of variance in the stock resistors and i prefer consistancy".

I built 1 system with 7.3ohm 25w alumnium cases (this was the value the MS calculator came up with), I continueally had transiant noise issues in the TPS signal. After much searching w/o-scope I found the issue. There is a thread on the MSII forum about it from about 2 years ago. Seems in 100% output it feeds back noise into the TPS circuit, there are some circuit mods to resolve but the easiest solution was to remove the resistors and go back to 70% output.

"What are you doing with the dizzy sounds like a lot of work for what is still just a 4 point pickup, I was hopeing you found a way to get something more like a toothed wheel in there. In my auto-X car I just locked the advance weights and plates and run a pertronx with a pullup resistor, fuel only builds i use a totally stock dizzy. Some people have said that running ignition with a 4 point pickup can cause unstable timming but i have yet to encounter a problem. Ideally though, next time the engine comes out I think i will switch over to a trigger wheel on the crank that one of the guys here produces".

The next version will be a missing tooth trigger wheel w/optical sensor. Most hi-performance builders will agree that a Cam trigger is far more accurate then a crank trigger wheel but most use both. The crank is mearly for TDC ID.
The current version in my 1800 has a 8-1 magnetic wheel w/1/4" magnets so the missing magnet is at #1 fire position and a TDC sensor on the crank pulley. MSII extra code can use these inputs for Wasted Spark or COP applications and makes sequencial port injection of fuel possible with a minor amount of modification to the PCB (basically your just adding the additional 2 injector outputs and seperating the tied outputs for batch fire), I did this for these future mods.
Additionally, for COP or Wasted Spark you need to add 1 or 3 more coil drivers, DIY now offers the Bosch BIP 373 coil driver IC w/overheat protection for about $3 instead of the old unprotected transistor.
Modifying the dizzy isn't that much work. The advance plate is pressed onto a knurl on the shaft and can be knocked off with ease. I made a jig for drilling the wheel correctly and assambly is pretty stright forward after that, grinding off the points studs on the FI plate and mounting the Hall sensor.

"Another thing i did was to wire the MS serial port to a 1/16 audio jack and use the Innovate serial cable for the MS tuning cable. This way the you dont have to cut the D-jet case for the 9-pin port, you can just drill a small hole for the audio jack".

This is a good idea and may start implementing this. Still need a USB convertor for most late model laptops as they don't have com ports anymore.

My first MS system was a water-to-air intercooled supercharged Volvo B-20 bored .095 over w/ported head measured 2.42L. It had a DCOE Weber on the intake of the SC and was a major mess just cleaning the varnish out of the intercooler when we installed the FI system. I machined a plate and adapter for the w/gate and throttle body. Pre-detonation was a major issue with the boosted motor so we installed a J&S Spark retard system w/knock sensing, this was all prior to MS-Extra code 3.1 that now handles all of these systems as well as waste gate/boost control, 2 stage nitrous, trans lock controller and a host of other goodies.

What PCB ver running and what version of firmware are you using?
Are you using TunerStudio or MegaTune?

Feel free to e-mail me off list as the # of people using MS on former d-jet apps is small and having someone to bounce ideas and problems off of is priceless when working with AM systems.
The Track car is going to a Dyno shop in Carlsbad, CA who specializes in MS systems and should bring the last % of performance out of the system in the near future.

Kurt
kertwerks@mindspring.com

[bam914]

Hey. That's my ECU picture. Yep Bill does awesome work. He did that system for my race 914. That was a fuel only system. It ran flawless.

Bam,
The system in you car looks good. I don't do anything to the ECU box other then clean the dirt off it as the 1800 guys seem to think the patina'd look of the zinc plated case is more stock looking.
I've worked with a few SDS systems and one of the Volvo guys used to make a similar system with MS I, that was a fuel only system. Did you use the factory dizzy trigger for the FI?.
The biggest problem with the MSII stealth system was getting the timing position of the trigger wheel and sensor in the dizzy alinged properly with the rotor position to the cap.
The earlier systems I built for a track car is likely moving to COP in the near future(another advantage of MSII).

Yep. Used the stock distributor with a Pertronix Ignitor. I also had a Mallory Hi-fire box and coil. I used the tach output on the Hi-Fire to trigger the ECU.

[JamesM]

Fast idle on the 914 is handled by the Aux. air regulator. This gets powered by the stock fuel pump relay so as long as your are triggering the stock relay it is taken care of.

Unless you are running in Alpha-N the only thing the TPS adds is acceleration enrichment and as I said before, this can be done without the TPS. While using a TPS is the best way to do this the difference in my experience is little, if at all noticeable. I have ran autocrosses with accel enrichment completely disabled and encountered no drivability issues. While I do agree TPS is the better way to go I think for most people it would not be worth the extra effort and cost.

I have gone back and forth on whether or not to include onboard fuses on the injector circuit, I used to think it would be better to have them but have since changed my mind on it for a couple reasons. The biggest issue I have with them is that if they blow you are stuck prying open the d-jet case to replace them and not only is that a PITA, those tabs on the case can only be bent so many times before they break off. While I was initially concerned about not having them I thought about it a bit and decided they are not really necessary in my setup for a couple reasons, first being that if you are pulling the power off the stock locations in the d-jet harness they are already fused at the relay board and second, with my change to the injector circuit the injectors wiring does not have 12V applied 100% of the time and is much less likely that a short could cause damage. They are still an extra layer of protection though so I may change my mind on this again.

7.3ohm is right around what the stock d-jet resistors are, depending on the ECU I have measured them from about 6.7 - 7.4. I have not seen the TPS noise issue but I have heard of people having noise issues on various circuits. I am not running MS2 or a 3.0 board at the moment though. I have a MS2 chip waiting to be put in for testing, just have not got to it yet. I have ran a 3.0 board with MS1 and did not see the issue there either.

I have previously ran both 2.2 and 3.0 boards but the current PCB I am using is an unofficial board based on the 2.2 schematic with a few of my own changes I am testing hacked in. It's about 40% smaller then a normal MS PCB and is easier to adapt my modifications to. Ultimately though this is still just for testing as I am working on my own PCB design that will include all my changes and solder directly to the main d-jet ECU connector. My main objective being to completely eliminate all the custom wiring needed to adapt the system and shave a good deal of time off the build.

As for Megatune vs. Tuner Studio, I used Megatune for years to tweak basic settings and did most of my fuel map adjustments from data logs with Megalogviewer with logs from a Palm. I finally bought Tuner Studio last year though and I have to say it was the best money I have spent on MS related goodies. Hands down, no question, Tuner Studio is the way to go.

[kertwerks]

Hello again group,
The Megasquirt Stealth System is has gone thru some update before being offer as a complete product,
First, the distributor has been upgraded to a 8-1-1, or 12-1-1 trigger wheel with a VRS sensor mounted in the case allowing for acurate trigger for either Sequintal Spark or Sequintal Port FI. Sequintal port injection requires addition of a injector driver PCB and modification to the PWM circuit if the MSII ECU. This mod is being acurrently being added to my system for testing and development.

I now also offer a modified that uses all the MS Stealth components but does not include the stock MAP sensor harness and uses either the factory relays or, relays can be mounted on the modified system panel. The panel mounts the ECU, relays, fuse panel w/fused outputs for system main, innovate power, FI banks 1&2 and fuel pump power.

I still offer the standard batch fire, basic trigger system. It still offers about 15% better performance and mileage the stock and anyone with MS installed can tell you how much better the car drives.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kertwerks/sets/
I've also made the modified system on a smaller panel that uses the factory relays and have mounted an Innnovate LC-1 O2 controller in the system panel.
Pictures will be up later tonight.
Kurt
kertwerks@mindspring.com

"racing makes heroin addiction seem like a vague urge for something salty"
Peter Egan