TOO HOT?, How hot does your teener run? Options

[BMartin914]

Just picked up my new 914 this morning.

Drove about 40 miles back home at an average speed of about 70. Ambient temp was probably 85 and the humidity very low, probably around 10 - 15%.

My (stock) temp gauge was almost touching the red a good part of the way. Just on the edge of red when I got home.

Should I be worried or do most teeners run this hot in this type of weather?

I wouldn't expect it to behave like a water-cooler but is it running TOO hot?

[SirAndy]

I wouldn't expect it to behave like a water-cooler but is it running TOO hot?

yes, it is ...

altough the stock gauge is not all that useful, you shouldn't be that close to red on a 85 day.

and because the car is new to you, you'll get to spend some qulity time with her!

a few things to check (in that order):
- make sure there's no dirt/leaves/other stuff blocking the cooling fins on the cylinders.
- make sure the thermostat is working properly (and the flaps are not stuck).
- make sure all the "warm air guides" are in place.
- make sure it doesn't run lean.
- make sure the timing is set OK.
- what year is the car? if it doesn't have the rubber "flaps" in front of the cross-bar, add a pair of those.
- make sure the fan isn't missing any blades.
- does it get enough air? try running a few miles without engine lid.
- air filter dirty?


there might be more, that's all i can think of right now,
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) Andy

[ejm]

The factory changed the size of the red area in '74. The early gauge had a wider red area and the needle would routinely approach it. The "fix" was to make the red area smaller. If your car has the early gauge get the late one. If you've got the late one, you have a problem.

[BMartin914]

I do have the later gauge with the smaller red area. The PO just had the car adjusted to pass emissions and it was leaned out to do so. I do not belive that he had taken it any significant distances since. I may contact him and ask how the car typically behaved at highway speeds.

I will check out the areas SirAndy listed and see if I can get any improvement.

Additionally, the engine lid drip tray has been removed to help facilitate better cooling.

The car is a 75 with a 1974 2.0 F.I. engine with a vanagon case and hydraulic lifters if that helps anyone.

One more thing...

the car came with the original owner's manual and while reading through it it states that the timing should be set at 27' BTDC, but the mechnic that passed the car indicated that this was wrong and adjusted the timing to 29' BTDC. Is this right? Could it be a contributing factor? Did the timing change in '75? The motor is essentially a '74.

[seanery]

If the engine hasn't been out in a while, see if you can get a look at the cooling fins of the cylinders. They get kludged up with oily crap.

[BMartin914]

Just finished checking out the areas that Andy had suggested.

The heads are all clear and clean, all engine tin is in place, thermostat and flappers are working correctly, air cleaner is fine, impeller blades are all intact and clean as are the rubber flaps under the car. I do not have the ability to check timing right now, but as I mentioned above, a mechanic timed the car on Friday -- 29' BTDC.

I am still new at this so I am going to do some reading and determine how to enrich the fuel mixture. I have a feeling that leaning it out for emissions may be what is causing it to run so hot.

Thanks for the help (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

Ben

[Bleyseng]

Get a A/F meter to adjust the MPS. Read Brad Anders MPS site stuff to understand how a MPS works.

http://www.members.rennlist.com/pbanders




Geoff

[Joe Ricard]

I always go by ctlinder head temp. the gauge you are looking at is oil temp. hard to really calibrate these things unless you do a comparision to a known thermometer. Different sensor than gauge could read off. Plus todays oil can stand more temp like the Synthetics 250 is no problem.

Head temp, now there is something you can get your ams around. Temp goes up = slow down temp goes down = speed up.

Today was 105 with the heat index and runing 80-85 on the freeway head temp was 345. Really helps to clean all the crap from the cylinder/ head fins.

Also noticed that the car runs cooler with all the heater box stuff hooked up. Got to be a reason them silly engineers came up with the idea of letting air always escape from the flapper valve when heat is shut off

Timing does it ping? are you running super or regular unleaded. Any idea what the builder did for compression ratio?

Oh yea welcome to the club who hate PO (previous owners) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/alfred.gif)

[Trekkor]

I have the late style " small red zone " temp guage as well.

When I drive naughty it goes up to just beyond the " P " in "TEMP".

There is likely room for three more letters before the red, if there were some.

I read an article in Panorama June 2004 pg.70.

The story suggests removing the sender and placing it in boiling water ( 212 degrees ) with the wires attached to the car. After this the guage face can be marked where 212 is.

Nuther idea is to drop the sender in hot vegie oil and use a candy thermometer while heating and noting 220, 30, etc,...

Maybe (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif) ...I'll try it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

What do you think? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

KT

[BMartin914]

Get a A/F meter to adjust the MPS

The PO gave me 2 other MPS sensors for the car. One denoted as "noisy - diaphragm suspect" and the other "go-fast" meaning that it is set up for racing.

Swap out the current MPS for the "go-fast" and see if there is any change?

Different sensor than gauge could read off. Plus todays oil can stand more temp like the Synthetics 250 is no problem

Is there any way to match the sensor to the gauge? My oil temp gauge is located above the alternator, brake and oil warning lights. Maybe different from console gauge?

The car currently has Mobil 1 Synthetic in it, and it leaks in a few places. Not terribly. 3 or 4 spots after its been sitting for a while.

Timing does it ping? are you running super or regular unleaded. Any idea what the builder did for compression ratio?

Engine does not ping.

I believe the car has regular in it, but honestly I have no idea. 3/4 full when I took delivery. On that note, CO gas is different in that reg is 85 octane, mid 87 and super is 89 or 90 (I think). Anyway, its different from sea level areas.

I would assume the engine has the stock compression ratio (7.6:1 ?) because the PO only redid the top end when he transplanted the engine, but then again, I do not know at this point.

Oh yea welcome to the club who hate PO (previous owners)

Funny! Actually, the PO is a real nice guy. Straight shooter, told me about all of the "quirks." That is why I have a feeling that this problem is somehow "tuned to pass emissions" related.

[BMartin914]

The story suggests removing the sender and placing it in boiling water ( 212 degrees ) with the wires attached to the car. After this the guage face can be marked where 212 is.

Nuther idea is to dropr the sender in hot vegie oil and use a candy thermometer and noting 220, 30, etc,...

Maybe [cool_shades.gif] ...I'll try it. [confused24.gif]

What do you think? [idea.gif]

Sounds like it'd be worth a shot!

[anthony]

Does "tuned to pass emissions" mean that he screwed with the MPS? I'd find a stock one or have your properly calibrated.

FWIW, my car is a bone stock '74 2L and I can run the car all day in hot weather and the gauge will only go as high as being between the M and P. I've never seen it get to red.

[BMartin914]

The mechanic who passed the car wrote the following notes:

Labor -- Check emissions, failed at idle. Too rich, HC near limit. Try to adjust press. sensor and ECU. R+R press. sensor and try to adjust again, won't respond properly. Adjust timing, was at 27' at an idle. Should be at 29' at 3500RPM. Reinstall original press. sensor and adjust. 2.2% CO and 130 HC at an idle. 5.0% CO at 2500 RPM same HC.

Maybe these will help you out. Give you some more insight than I can.

Again, I really appreciate the help.

Hearing that some folks can run all day long around 1/2 way, makes me worry a little bit.

[EdwardBlume]

I run at 250. Too hot. I need to install an oil cooler.

[914ghost]

My 1.8 runs at 200 to 230 degrees for the most part, at ....1200 feet, roughly 80-90 degree day, doing 70 to 100 mph on the freeway. Going up the steep side (eastbound) of Snoqualamie pass it creeped upwards of 250 deg...goosbumps. . doing 80+ mph
Thats seems reasonable to me.
It would think it would be a fr*kin miracle if it ran at 180 driving like that.
I like my aftermarket VDO guage, it gots numbers- and its ...*fairly* close.
I heated cooking oil and dropped the sensor (under car, HOT oil in pan, sender grounded and hooked to sender wire) in the oil and read the guage and read a candy thermometer at the same time to see what it was like. It was off up to about 8 degrees and got more accurate as it cooled.
Works for me...
Bob O

[Rockaria]

My 1975 1.8 L-Jet Runs on the hot side. But it depends on the ambiant temps.

Temps taken with calibrated thermocouple unit:
100 Degree day = 240 degree oil temps/ 350 degree head temps
75 Degree day = 220 degree oil temps/ 325 degree head temps
50 degree day = 200 degree oil temps/ 300 degree head temps

Head temp is taken off of #3. I have had the sensor on #1 and #4. The driver side runs 25 degrees less across the board.

My engine is clean, clean. No obstructions, the fan is perfect. Timed at 5 degrees at idle (Book says 7.5 for the 1.8at idle though I am mostly interested in 3500 timing) and 29 degrees at 3500 rpm. Everything is stock. Using points, bosch blue coil. I have the AFM tuned to run a little rich. I do not need to have my emissions tested where I live.

It runs just fine no matter the temperature. I have a small idle problem when it is 240 degree oil temps. When its 230 degrees or below it idles perfectly.

I live at 4000 feet in the hot dry desert. So I have sort of decided this is normal. I took the car on a 1000 mile drive this past june and it ran the whole time just fine.

[jporsche914]

Would it be worth the money to get an oil guage for my 1.7L?? In the summer it get hot in colorado. Is it easy to install a guage?? So 240 degrees is a ok temperature to run??

[Jake Raby]

180-225 is perfect..

225-245 is very warm and will require oil changes more frequently as it heats up the oil and breaks it down faster

250+ is very hot- Shut her down unless you have a pressure gauge and can ensure that you still have atleast 40 pounds of operating pressure.

Hot oil is thin oil... thinning out the oil is what spins bearings and wears parts.

Oil temps are directly related to RPM and ambient air temps.

[phantom914]

The factory changed the size of the red area in '74. The early gauge had a wider red area and the needle would routinely approach it. The "fix" was to make the red area smaller. If your car has the early gauge get the late one. If you've got the late one, you have a problem.

I have a '74 and the red arc starts at the midpoint. On a warm day this weekend, the needle was right on the edge of the red (so at the midpoint).

So do I have the old style or new style gauge? And if it is indeed the old style, is running right on the edge of the red normal?


Andrew

[Chris H.]

Sounds like old style. "Normal" is difficult to define, but it is true that there was a lot of overheating reported with the '73's and the fix was to take about 2/3 of the red part off of the gauge. Nothing was changed otherwise.