Loose Wheel Studs, Is this typical? Options

[Joseph Mills]

I have 3 loose wheel studs RR and 1 loose LR. They tighten down just fine, but when the wheel is off you can wiggle them.

These are 5 lug converted drums (Phat in CA).

If repair is necessary, what is the procedure? New studs? Are the drums possibly damaged? Anyone with experience?

Car is AX'd with Hoosiers and am concerned about safety - don't wanna run over the safety steward..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[fuch toy]

Try changing studs....if it still does it, they might be stripped.

Typically, five lug conversions use pressed in studs like the 911. If you are still using the 914 style lugnut stud combination, sounds like you would be better off pulling the hubs and pressing 911 studs in and using alloy nuts.....

[Joseph Mills]

Try changing studs....if it still does it, they might be stripped.

Typically, five lug conversions use pressed in studs like the 911. If you are still using the 914 style lugnut stud combination, sounds like you would be better off pulling the hubs and pressing 911 studs in and using alloy nuts.....

PO says these drums were converted by Phat in CA. Fuchs are mounted with alloy nuts (with 69 911 front suspension) - so I guess it already has 911 studs.

Should this be done by a shop, since they need to be "pressed", or is this something I could attempt? Are the drums probably damaged as well?

[fuch toy]

Maybe they need to be reseated.....are they shorter than the tight ones? I mean do the loose ones show less thread?

If so, sounds like you need an open head nut and a air gun to pull them tight and reseat them.

[seanery]

Joseph,
You keep saying drums, do you mean discs?

If they are 911 style then you should have pressed in studs.
I agree with Zois, maybe a longer stud (there are several sizes)
and open ended STEEL nut.

If you're autocrossing, those are better anyway. Big tracks mandate
steel lugnuts in most cases anyway, so if you did that you'd want those
then.

[Joseph Mills]

Joseph,
You keep saying drums, do you mean discs?

If they are 911 style then you should have pressed in studs.
I agree with Zois, maybe a longer stud (there are several sizes)
and open ended STEEL nut.

If you're autocrossing, those are better anyway. Big tracks mandate
steel lugnuts in most cases anyway, so if you did that you'd want those
then.

I'm an idiot. I guess I mean discs - or hubs. The front is 911 suspension and brakes. The rears are standard 914 brakes and hubs that have been converted (drilled?) for 5 lugs.

I thought you HAD to use the alloys on the fuchs. Would VW lug nuts work okay as long as the outer diameter is correct so that it seats into the wheel nut openings?

Zois - good idea on the stud length. I'm going to check them tomorrow for equal length. Thanks for the re-seating tip. I've got a friend with air tools that can help me.

[Brad Roberts]

VW's have lugbolts just like the 914/4's. You'll need 911 steel lug nuts.

This is pretty common.. even on factory sixes. This is part of the reason we religiously use a torque wrench on our converted hubs.


B

[meursault]

What I'm thinking here is that the holes drilled for the studs were either bored out too much or the studs themselves bored out the holes over time. Most 4 cylinder hubs didn't have too much meat in there for the studs to seat into. I'd take off the rotor and tack weld the studs in a couple of places so they won't move again for a while. Of course I would first suck those studs in as much as possible by tightening a steel lug nut down on a spacer of some kind while the wheel and rotor are off.

Just my $.02

[Joseph Mills]

VW's have lugbolts just like the 914/4's. You'll need 911 steel lug nuts.

This is pretty common.. even on factory sixes. This is part of the reason we religiously use a torque wrench on our converted hubs.


B

"religiously use a torque wrench"

You're alluding to something I was wondering about - like why did this happen in the first place? Lug nuts too loose? Too tight? Both?

Once after picking up and driving my car 10-15 miles, suddenly it sounded like the CVs were going - I nursed it back to the shop. Sure enough, the rear lugs were not tightened. The mechanic felt so bad I didn't say a thing. Maybe some damage occured then. Anyway, since then I always check for myself.

But it looks like I need to start using a torque wrench on them always. At AXs when the tech checks random lugs, mine always seem to usually be a little tighter than his torque wrench setting. What is the appropriate pound setting for both factory alloy and open steel lug nuts?

[seanery]

Check the wheels lug holes for ovalizing. If you've driven on them loose that is possible and will cause them to get loose frequently.

I had a truck that had a lug break on one get loose and then they all went to hell and the holes ovalized. That's the short story, but check that, too.

[J P Stein]

The late hub are fine....for 4 lugs.....crap for a 5 lug conversion....did I say crap?....what I meant to say was CRAP.

Are hubs unsafe when the studs come loose?......wellhellyeah, do you think they're gonna get better? Nor would I try welding them. The hubs have a hardness of RC 34/36....I checked some.


The metal has passed it's yield point....if they are late hubs, they yielded when the studs were pressed in.... There is insufficient grip length for the stud and the edge margin is too small. 914s are NOT an exception to good engineering practices.

[914Timo]

QUOTE (Brad Roberts @ Apr 24 2003, 09:26 PM) VW's have lugbolts just like the 914/4's. You'll need 911 steel lug nuts.

...or you can use steel nuts from VW Type-2 bus after ´68. Some Audis also use M14x1.5 thread and semispherical cone in wheel nuts.

[thesey914]

I thought about using the steel nuts from a VW type2 but I remember somewhere reading about the hemispherical contact area being different on the Fuchs .
I know people who have used these type2 nuts and say they're fine. I used the 911 ones I bought with the studs.

Anyone know if the interface is different?
-J. Seymour

[Demick]

The metal has passed it's yield point....if they are late hubs, they yielded when the studs were pressed in.... There is insufficient grip length for the stud and the edge margin is too small. 914s are NOT an exception to good engineering practices.

Not true.

The late hubs are fine for re-drilling and studding for a 5 bolt conversion. Not OK for using any sort of thread-in stud or lug bolt. But they are fine for using rear press-in studs. The hub material thickness of the thin part of the 914 hub is the same thickness of the 911 hubs. So saying there isn't enough grip length for the studs is the same as saying all 911 hubs are unsafe.

Demick
'74 2.0

[brant]

I too have used late hubs with correct studs on 5-bolt conversions.....

my track car has been running for 10 years of highspeed tracks this way..

I agree that early hubs are a little thicker (probably better).. but the late ones work fine too and I've never...NEVER... had a failure.

brant

[J P Stein]

The hub material thickness of the thin part of the 914 hub is the same thickness of the 911 hubs.  So saying there isn't enough grip length for the studs is the same as saying all 911 hubs are unsafe.

Demick
'74 2.0

Not true?
Really?
Have you measured the respective thicknesses?
What were your results?....actual numbers, please...just for the record.

I got off the trunip truck, but not yesterday. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Demick]

Not true?
Really?
Have you measured the respective thicknesses?
What were your results?....actual numbers, please...just for the record.

I got off the trunip truck, but not yesterday. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Didn't measure them with calipers. Just compared them side-by-side at Parts Heaven a few years back after they told me about the thickness being common and that the late model hubs were fine to use (I was inquiring about if they had any early hubs for exactly that reason).

Demick
'74 2.0

[J P Stein]

Oh.....then I guess what I wrote *might* be true, eh? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

As I recall, the difference is .23ish vs .37ish....I used calipers. When laying the early & late side by side, the difference is obivious....no pics, sorry. God only knows what you were shown.

[Mueller]

For a little bit of insurance and piece-o-mind....I'll be running "hubcentric" rings that are pressed into the hubs.......

[Demick]

Oh.....then I guess what I wrote *might* be true, eh? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

As I recall, the difference is .23ish vs .37ish....I used calipers. When laying the early & late side by side, the difference is obivious....no pics, sorry. God only knows what you were shown.

I didn't say the early and late were the same. The early hubs have 5 thicker embosses where you drill for studs. The late do not. When late hubs are used, some of the studs end up in places where there are no embosses (in the thin part of the hub).

What I DID say is that the thin part of the late 914 hub (which you claim is too thin), is the same thickness as the entire hub of the early 911's (which used the same rear press-in studs). If Porsche decided that this thickness was appropriate for a car with twice the HP and a few hundred extra lbs of weight, then I think they will be satisfactory for my 95hp 914.

Demick
'74 2.0