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> Zach's Carbs to Microsquirt conversion thread, 7/20/18 update
TargaToy
post Oct 12 2011, 06:04 PM
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Zach, I'm glad you're asking this stuff. I drive the 1.7 but have a 1.8 waiting in the wings for a 2056 build up. Was wondering the same thing about the 1.8 runners being larger. They "seem" larger but when I threw my caliper on them, I got mixed measurements (mostly because I can only get on the bends on the runners in the car).

Still batting around L-Jet vs MS so research and learn away while I piggy-back on your findings!!!
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FourBlades
post Oct 12 2011, 06:05 PM
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I apologize if this is a hijack. I would like EFI for a lot of reasons as well but I
thought I would see in a quick and dirty way how much the carbs could be
quieted down.

Attached Image

The carb tops and plenum are just welded up exhaust pipe and 20 gauge sheet
metal. I put eastwoodmat around the carb tops. The tubing, couplers, and cone
filter are cheap FLAPS parts.

Attached Image

I need to do some more tests but my initial results are 88 db with itgs at 900 rpm
and 82 db at 760 rpm with my cheesy intake system. I was getting 104 db at
2600 rpm with itgs and never took a good reading with the new system at that
rpm. I'll get on that.

Now I can hear the exhaust a little but also a lot of general air cooled noise that
is not intake related.

This seems to help low end throttle response but obviously would be restrictive
past a certain rpm.

John
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VaccaRabite
post Oct 12 2011, 06:12 PM
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QUOTE(jsayre914 @ Oct 12 2011, 05:52 PM) *

cant you just redrill the intake flanges and bolt the whole shabang on there? Sound like it can handle your engine with a bit of adjustment.

The 1.8 stuff should bolt right up to my car. No redrilling needed. I'll be able to many of the stock parts but want to use a MS brain - as much to learn it as anything else. The bolt pattern for the intake runners at the head is the same for 1.7 and 1.8.

Since the TB and runners are the same as the 2.0 units, there will need to be no cobbling together.

QUOTE(FourBlades @ Oct 12 2011, 05:52 PM) *

I apologize if this is a hijack. I would like EFI for a lot of reasons as well but I
thought I would see in a quick and dirty way how much the carbs could be
quieted down.


Hey there my thread pirate. You should start a thread on this info.Lots of folks would probably be interested.

Zach



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underthetire
post Oct 12 2011, 07:05 PM
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Zach, if you get the v3 board on the megasquirt, it will run low impedance injectors. Diy auto tune is where I got my ms2 with the v3 board. At that time it was 249.00 for the diy kit. Takes about a full day to solder together, but was fun and pretty easy.
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Dave_Darling
post Oct 12 2011, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE(TargaToy @ Oct 12 2011, 05:04 PM) *
Was wondering the same thing about the 1.8 runners being larger. They "seem" larger but when I threw my caliper on them, I got mixed measurements (mostly because I can only get on the bends on the runners in the car).


The 1.8 uses the same manifold boots as the 2.0 does. (Those are the short and fat hoses from the intake runner pipes to the plenum.) The 1.7 uses different ones that have a smaller ID. So the inboard ends, at least, of the 1.8 pipes are larger than those of the 1.7 pipes.

--DD
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VaccaRabite
post Oct 12 2011, 08:14 PM
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I already have an MSII v3.52 "factory" built box from DIY, a JimStim board for testing, and the V3 main board wire harness. I picked this stuff up from Jake over the summer from his personal stash, since he ddcided not to build a test mule with it.

Zach
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VaccaRabite
post Oct 12 2011, 08:35 PM
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I am retrofitting this thread to be my full on conversion thread, documenting my change from dual 40 Webers to MSII fuel injection.

Here is what I have so far, and what I need:
HAVE:
  • MSIIv3.52 pre-built box.
  • JimStim board for testing the MSII box
  • V3 main Board wire harness.

    Will soon have:
    Injection system off a 1.8 914, from which I will use
  • Throttle body
  • Intake Runners
  • Fuel Injectors (unless I find they don't flow enough fuel)
  • Fuel Rail
  • Fuel Pump (maybe - Joe may still need it for himself)

    Stuff I need:
  • TPS or MAF or MAP sensor
  • 4 wire O2 sensor
  • Bung welded into exhaust
  • Fuel Pump (Maybe, see above)
  • Other stuff I don't know about yet
The engine is a 2056, particulars as follows:
Built on 1.7 heads.
Jake's 9530 cam (carb cam similar to Web 494)
Mallory optical ignition
ACCEL (UltraCoil) coil.
SSI exchangers for exhaust.

My goals for this project are to have near stock intake noise volume, better cold starting - especially in cooler weather, negate the bad effects or Ethanol on carbs, teach myself something about fuel injection.

Since I already have a pretty good ignition system, I am not going to go after crank fired ignition at this time, but I am not ruling that out for the future.
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Dr Evil
post Oct 12 2011, 08:43 PM
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moparrob
post Oct 12 2011, 09:17 PM
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I've got a nice fuel pump you can have if you decide you need it. It came with my car which the previous owner had converted to ITB fuel injection. However, when I bought the car it had no engine, so I built a six with Webers. I'm using a Holley low pressure pump.

The extra pump is a Bosch 0 580 254 979 which is rated at 165 liters/hour and maintains pressure at 5 bars (72 psi). It came stock on 78-79 930's and 79-82 924 Turbos. The pump was probably used for about 500 to 1000 miles of driving.

Anyhow, the pump looks like this:

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i954.photobucket.com-11663-1318475865.1.jpg)

This is a stock image, though. Mine has -AN fittings on the intake and exhaust ports, plus a mounting bracket.

They cost quite a bit new but I really don't need it and I have noticed you contribute quite a bit to this site's content. So if you want it just pay for postage (probably $10.) and it is yours.

Let me know.

Rob
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VaccaRabite
post Oct 12 2011, 09:20 PM
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Rob, consider me letting you know I want it. PM me details.
Zach
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moparrob
post Oct 12 2011, 09:44 PM
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you've got mail....
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jcd914
post Oct 12 2011, 11:03 PM
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QUOTE(moparrob @ Oct 12 2011, 08:17 PM) *

The extra pump is a Bosch 0 580 254 979 which is rated at 165 liters/hour and maintains pressure at 5 bars (72 psi). It came stock on 78-79 930's and 79-82 924 Turbos. The pump was probably used for about 500 to 1000 miles of driving.


That is CIS pump and will overwhelm a 914 fuel pressure regulator and probably most any EFI fuel pressure regulator.
I used a similar (or maybe the same) pump on a MoTec install on a 3.4L 911 turbo engine using 3.2 Carrera fuel rails and pressure regulator. It was too much fuel at idle and had to have an additional regulator added to keep pressure down at idle.
Under load it was OK since the engine used a lot of fuel but at idle pressure would build up.

Jim
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a914622
post Oct 12 2011, 11:32 PM
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I know a guy that pulls the stuff needed to make the maga squirt dyi and sells them on ebay. He pulls everything off the fords. The ztec engine has the right timing wheel and pickup, coil packs, tps, and a funky sensor that tells the amount of eythanl in the gas.
The fuel pump out of the volvo turbos have a great fuel pump and filter setup.

As far as a real quiet intake, The filter box out of a dodge caravan (90s) works great. The same noise problem in the subaru/vanagon setup. I turned the bottom housing around and ran a hose out the intake side to get the sucking sound farther out. You could almost run it all the way back to the lights?


jcl
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Valy
post Oct 13 2011, 10:33 AM
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QUOTE(jcd914 @ Oct 12 2011, 10:03 PM) *

QUOTE(moparrob @ Oct 12 2011, 08:17 PM) *

The extra pump is a Bosch 0 580 254 979 which is rated at 165 liters/hour and maintains pressure at 5 bars (72 psi). It came stock on 78-79 930's and 79-82 924 Turbos. The pump was probably used for about 500 to 1000 miles of driving.


That is CIS pump and will overwhelm a 914 fuel pressure regulator and probably most any EFI fuel pressure regulator.
I used a similar (or maybe the same) pump on a MoTec install on a 3.4L 911 turbo engine using 3.2 Carrera fuel rails and pressure regulator. It was too much fuel at idle and had to have an additional regulator added to keep pressure down at idle.
Under load it was OK since the engine used a lot of fuel but at idle pressure would build up.

Jim

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VaccaRabite
post Nov 5 2011, 08:22 PM
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Just finished pulling the engine. We are officially under way. Carbs are up in storage as is the Tangerine cable sync. For sale by the way. Need money for EFI bits.

Joe, your 1.8 out yet? I need to scavenge!
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jsayre914
post Nov 6 2011, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE(Vacca Rabite @ Nov 5 2011, 10:22 PM) *


Joe, your 1.8 out yet? I need to scavenge!


Not yet. With the wife not feeling good, sick dog, busy at work, kids karate, and football....

I would love to find the time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Come get what you need. All Fuel Injection is accessable with the engine in the car. I am home Tuesday as usual.

p.s. I do have another fuel pump. Both are tested and working great.

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aircooledtechguy
post Nov 7 2011, 10:08 AM
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I just finished a similar conversion for my '67 Squareback. I transplanted a '73 914 2.0L and converted it to MS2 V3 w/ EDIS using the stock 2.0L runners and a 1.8L plenum (clocked about 3/4" on the fwd mounting only so the runners would line-up) and a slightly modified 2.0L TB. I get my CLT temp from the LH valve cover. I switched to a Walbro pump. The injectors are yellow-top Type-3 D-jet injectors which flow almost as much as the stock green-top 2.0L type. I have had no fuel starvation with these

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/images.thesamba.com-9730-1320682118.1.jpg)

I've been meaning to pull it all apart to get it all powder coated, but I just enjoy driving it too much. . . It drives like a scalded cat!! When I get the car painted I'm going to have the pin-stripper badge it "SB Type-P SS" ("Squareback, Type-Porsche Super Sleeper").

Mine has EDIS, but if you want the MSQ-file, shoot me your e-mail address and I'll send it to you. It'll get you in the ball-park for your motor and have a good starting point anyway.
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charliew
post Nov 7 2011, 11:05 AM
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I'm just reading along and hopefully learning if only I can remember. I'm curious how a fuel pump can overwelm a pressure regulator if the return line is big enough. My son runs a BIG pump on his sti and still uses the stock lines. Oh yeah I forgot his pump is modulated.
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Brodie
post Nov 7 2011, 01:14 PM
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Zach, There are some calculations to determining throttle body size.

cfm = (Max RPM x Volumetric Efficiency x Cubic inches) / 3456

or

max area of opening = (cfm x 2.4) / 300 feet per second

Use 85% for an average guess on volumetric efficiency. If you have information on what the actual volumetric efficiency is use it, but I'm not sure how to get it.

I would say that you need to calculate the area of the ID of all of the runners and make sure that they are at least as much as the throttle bottle. I would think that even a bit larger would be better. You want to flow as much air through the runners as the throttle body.

Don't oversize the throttle body by too much because at fully throttle it's fine, but at idle you bump the throttle just a little bit and a large amount of air rushes in. I would think that would cause some grief.

I haven't done this for myself yet because I have to get my car built from scratch, but when I do, these calculations will come in handy. (I think!)

I don't know if this will help you any but through my research I found a few tidbits here and there, and wanted to pass them along.

Good luck!
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VaccaRabite
post Aug 17 2012, 08:36 PM
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Okay, I've not updated this thread since November.
Could be I am maybe a bit embarrassed by my lack of getting-shit-doneness?

So there has been a bit of a change of plans.
I am going to be running McMark's Microsquirt setup.
I fought with myself for nearly 6 months before admitting that having a setup that took the engineering out of this would be a much better way to go right now. Mark's system gets me crankfire ignition, coil on plug, a weather sealed MS box that can live in the engine bay, a pre-built wire harness, and a huge bit of cussing and experimenting taken out of the picture.

The MSIIv3 box I have will go on the Jeep. Or I'll sell it. Dunno yet.

I just put my Mallory Unilite system up for sale in the classified section. NO BACKSLIDING!

Years ago I ran one of Chris's stainless fuel lines through the tunnel. For years I considered selling the return line. Almost gave it away twice. Glad I didn't. I was not looking forward to running it in, but tonight I did just that. While I had the tank out, I also pulled all the carb related fuel stuff out.

One kinda scary thing... The fuel filter I put in ~2008 was clearly not intended for ethanol. It looked like this when I pulled it out.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/farm9.staticflickr.com-1435-1345257398.1.jpg)
The inlet and outlet were both deformed and degraded from the fuel. If you are using this type of filter - CHECK IT!

Also, there was a LOT more rust in the tank then there was in 2008 when the tank went back in the car. Not nearly enough to be worried about, but enough that I was really surprised when I put a flashlight in and looked around. Stupid alcohol.

Zach
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