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> Zach's Carbs to Microsquirt conversion thread, 7/20/18 update
McMark
post Sep 6 2016, 07:58 AM
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Do I dare say it...... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hide.gif)

Dyno tuning. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)
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VaccaRabite
post Sep 6 2016, 11:38 AM
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QUOTE(McMark @ Sep 6 2016, 09:58 AM) *

Do I dare say it...... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hide.gif)

Dyno tuning. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

That's the plan, but I'd like to get the car at least idling without having to introduce a huge air leak. I've been talking with Tony at Translog about getting it on a dyno, but it needs to be closer before I do that.

Zach
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VaccaRabite
post Feb 6 2017, 09:57 PM
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So. My desire to eventually drive the car has overrun my desire to finish this build myself.

I'm sending the car to McMark to button up my EFI and get it dyno-tuned.

With any luck I'll be able to fly out and drive it home sometime this spring.

Zach
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saigon71
post Feb 7 2017, 08:18 AM
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It'll be good to see your car on the road again Zach.
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struckn
post Feb 7 2017, 10:07 AM
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That's great news Zach glad you're getting it done. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

However, my only concern is your plan to drive it back home from Grand Rapids to York Pa. You might want to ease your way back into it once McMark is done and have him tell you if he thinks the car is solid enough to make the long trip home.

Just saying if it were me I'd get it shipped home, probably be less expensive then flying back out to Grand Rapids to pick it up and drive it home.

Doug
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76-914
post Feb 7 2017, 06:36 PM
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QUOTE(Vacca Rabite @ Feb 6 2017, 07:57 PM) *

So. My desire to eventually drive the car has overrun my desire to finish this build myself.

I'm sending the car to McMark to button up my EFI and get it dyno-tuned.

With any luck I'll be able to fly out and drive it home sometime this spring.

Zach

That was a smart move. Tell him to throw a small Turbo on it while he's in there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
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VaccaRabite
post Feb 23 2017, 08:20 PM
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Car is at Marks shop, and there has been progress.
Last Friday, my helper steered the car while I pushed it out of the garage and got it down the drive way.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-1435-1487902805.1.jpg)

So very dusty!
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-1435-1487902807.2.jpg)

But also really nice to see it out in the sun again.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-1435-1487902808.3.jpg)

Up on the flatbed ready for its big trip to McMark.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-1435-1487902810.4.jpg)

Mark started having some of the same issues I was having with the spark signal and getting random misses. So he took out the plug I put in to the crank fire wires.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-1435-1487902811.5.jpg)

Seeing as how I doubt I'll be removing the wire harness again, I told him it was okay to delete the plug and make it a permanent join.

But that didn't fix the weak spark signal.

mark said he went so far as to build a test rig that only hooked up to the VR sensor and it still had issues when on the car, but worked fine when off the car. They tested all the EFI stuff, and it made no change. Pulled the battery, no change.
Pulled the starter....

And got a solid strong signal!

So, somehow my hi-torque starter has been interfering with my ignition signal. A stock starter worked just fine.

Mark was so excited he started texting me this afternoon as soon as he had figured it out.

This actually may be the answer to why I was always getting random misses with the Mallory as well. No one could explain it, but I would get constant misfires from the spark feed cutting out randomly. I worked around the problem at the time by putting in a HUGE coil and just pumping more energy into each pulse. There would still be misses, but the spark that went through went through with a lot more power.

I don't know that I EVER would have thought to pull the starter and test it with another starter.

Crazy stuff.

Zach
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crash914
post Feb 23 2017, 08:28 PM
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I need help with this one. How is a starter affecting running? Bad connection to the power connection at the starter?
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VaccaRabite
post Feb 23 2017, 08:31 PM
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QUOTE(crash914 @ Feb 23 2017, 09:28 PM) *

I need help with this one. How is a starter affecting running? Bad connection to the power connection at the starter?

No idea. I can't make heads or tails of it. In theory the starter isn't getting power when its not starting the engine.

But something about it was wonky.

Zach
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shag
post Feb 23 2017, 09:20 PM
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QUOTE(Vacca Rabite @ Feb 23 2017, 10:31 PM) *

QUOTE(crash914 @ Feb 23 2017, 09:28 PM) *

I need help with this one. How is a starter affecting running? Bad connection to the power connection at the starter?

No idea. I can't make heads or tails of it. In theory the starter isn't getting power when its not starting the engine.

But something about it was wonky.

Zach
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shag
post Feb 23 2017, 09:28 PM
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I certainly hope that this works out for you, I have been watching you rebuild and get this car running for a long time.
Shag
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timothy_nd28
post Feb 23 2017, 09:29 PM
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My hat is off to Mark for finding that, what a great find. Still confused to why, but still a great find. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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McMark
post Feb 24 2017, 04:03 AM
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That was one of the craziest troubleshooting sessions I've had. I tried everything and was pulling my hair out because nothing was working. Sometimes when all the obvious stuff isn't the problem you have to try the crazy stuff. All in all, I tried the following:

1 Removed the connector Zach added.
2 Tried a spare VR sensor.
3 Tried a whole new wire to the Vr sensor.
4 Tried a spare ECU.
5 Tried a dedicated, VR-only wiring setup.
6 Pulled the VR only setup and tested it with a trigger wheel on my lathe.
7 Tried the VR only setup back on the car, but with the ECU powered by a separate battery (isolating the ECU).
8 Tried the VR-only setup with separate battery and by turning the engine by hand. (This is where things started Working)
9 Swapped in a spare starter and left the Ford booster solenoid and factory wiring disconnected and used a starter button. Things still worked.
10 Reconnected the solenoid and factory wiring back the way it was but with the spare starter, everything still worked.

Whew! Next week I'll actually put a tune in the ECU for the first time and see if it runs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/boldblue.gif)
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McMark
post Feb 24 2017, 04:08 AM
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Oh yeah, I also tried adding extra ground cables in case engine grounding was the issue. It wasn't.
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falcor75
post Feb 24 2017, 04:57 AM
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Wow thats one crazy issue. Wierd that that the starter can affect the VR sensor when its not even energized...

Well done Mark!
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crash914
post Feb 24 2017, 05:32 AM
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since I have a hi torque starter also, I will be watching.

Unless there is some current leakage through the starter, I just can't see how it would affect the signals...???

Glad its working!
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McMark
post Feb 24 2017, 07:52 AM
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Possibly EMI.
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struckn
post Feb 24 2017, 08:55 AM
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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

Wow Zach, this is great news and amazing that in such a short period of time it sounds like McMark has gotten to the root of your problems and is closing in quickly to getting your car back on the road. Perfect weather coming for a ride (if it doesn't snow Sunday).
Are you still thinking of Driving it back? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

Doug
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76-914
post Feb 24 2017, 09:48 AM
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QUOTE(McMark @ Feb 24 2017, 05:52 AM) *

Possibly EMI.

Great Amazing find, Mark. That is just insane! I'd have committed Harry Karry long before finding the problem. Curious; not even the presence of millivolts at the starter?
See Zach; that was a smart move. How many mechanics would have pursued that mystery with Mark's tenacity? Dedication, commitment and the desire for excellence come to mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
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Spoke
post Feb 24 2017, 05:58 PM
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Great find but really weird.

So put in a different starter and the VR sensor works fine? What is the VR sensor? Is that a power supply for the Megasquirt?

Everyone like to believe in PFM (pure funking magic) wrt electricity and electronics because one cannot see what is happening in an electric circuit until it starts working or the smoke is let out of something.

Since it seems the actual root cause has not been determined besides putting in a different starter, I'll take a guess that with the original starter in the circuit, there is some sort of instability causing oscillation wrt the impedance of the starter and the characteristic impedance of the power rails. Not all dc power supplies are stable over all load conditions.

Did anyone use an oscilloscope to check voltages at the VR sensor or the starter? If so, what did the voltage look like? I don't trust voltmeters to give a accurate dc reading since voltmeters generally average the voltage spikes and oscillations it sees. An oscope shows the actual voltage.

I say this about using an oscope after an experience trying to figure out why a new chip we were developing at Lucent wasn't working. Power was a stable 3.3Vdc as read on our voltmeter. We put the oscope on the 3.3V and found it was 3.3Vdc with 2VPP ripple on top of it. Voltmeter said Ok but oscope revealed we were fucked.
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