Ethics Question, Removing ABS from a Street Boxster Options

[Series9]

Direct her to the 914World.com used car classifeds. She needs a 914.

Her car is worth about $7k if it didn't have the brake problem. As it sits, she's not getting a very nice 914 in trade.

[Woody]

Are you sure the pedal is going to the floor or is she perhaps maybe loosing the booster? I've seen the boosters fill with water and work intermittently. Never heard of a intermittent soft pedal.

[bigkensteele]

They are going to say "We can fix that for $4000. It needs a new ABS module. DO NOT drive it until it's fixed at a FACTORY service center."

I think that you might have answered your own question, which is probably why you posted this in the first place.

I understand that you want to do her a favor, but it is not worth putting YOUR neck out there. She might not like shelling out 4 large to keep her car on the road, but you know that you don't want to disable here ABS either. You seem to be one hell of a nice guy, but sometimes a nice guy has to tell a customer "You really need to have this fixed properly, and it is going to be expensive".

[Series9]

Are you sure the pedal is going to the floor or is she perhaps maybe loosing the booster? I've seen the boosters fill with water and work intermittently. Never heard of a intermittent soft pedal.

I've never seen anything like this before either. It's happened twice in 11 years and 140k miles. She's the only witness. The last time it happened, she almost crashed the car. I have to take her at her word.

I did drive the car today and forced the ABS to function twice. It worked and the pedal was totally firm.

[Series9]

They are going to say "We can fix that for $4000. It needs a new ABS module. DO NOT drive it until it's fixed at a FACTORY service center."

I think that you might have answered your own question, which is probably why you posted this in the first place.

I understand that you want to do her a favor, but it is not worth putting YOUR neck out there. She might not like shelling out 4 large to keep her car on the road, but you know that you don't want to disable here ABS either. You seem to be one hell of a nice guy, but sometimes a nice guy has to tell a customer "You really need to have this fixed properly, and it is going to be expensive".

Would you be saying the same thing if the car in question was a 1988 944? Because that car is so far out of warranty, probably not. The point I'm making is that this car is no more Porsche's responsibility than a 1971 914.

If a 914 had a brake failure, would anyone say "take it to Porsche. It's a safety issue that's their problem." Of course not.

This Boxster is 11. I think about it no differently than a 914 in these terms.

[r_towle]

Big reds, lose the abs

[edwin]

Sounds to me that if the last time she had a failure she locked the brakes which caused her to spin.
So to remove the abs altogether seems to make no sense given she isnt able to drive and not lock the brakes other times.
I would look at it as how confident are you in the customers ability to deal with it.
Sounds to me like she isnt able to safely drive the car without abs.
my 2c
Edwin

[bigkensteele]

They are going to say "We can fix that for $4000. It needs a new ABS module. DO NOT drive it until it's fixed at a FACTORY service center."

I think that you might have answered your own question, which is probably why you posted this in the first place.

I understand that you want to do her a favor, but it is not worth putting YOUR neck out there. She might not like shelling out 4 large to keep her car on the road, but you know that you don't want to disable here ABS either. You seem to be one hell of a nice guy, but sometimes a nice guy has to tell a customer "You really need to have this fixed properly, and it is going to be expensive".

Would you be saying the same thing if the car in question was a 1988 944? Because that car is so far out of warranty, probably not. The point I'm making is that this car is no more Porsche's responsibility than a 1971 914.

If a 914 had a brake failure, would anyone say "take it to Porsche. It's a safety issue that's their problem." Of course not.

This Boxster is 11. I think about it no differently than a 914 in these terms.

I agree with you on all points if you know without question that disabling the ABS will correct the issue. If it is only an educated guess, then I stand by my comments.

To really equate this to your 71 914 example, you would be disabling the second circuit on the 914 master cylinder, and I know that you wouldn't do that. As far as the 944 goes, if I owned a shop, the only way I would disable the ABS would be if the customer agreed that the car would be for track-use only.

Trust me, I am not trying to argue with you. I only want you to be in business for a long time. This lady might be a great person, but you don't know about her heirs. And God forbid, if she cashes all her chips in on brake failure in her Boxster, you will be hearing from lawyers of said heirs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Series9]

Sounds to me that if the last time she had a failure she locked the brakes which caused her to spin.
So to remove the abs altogether seems to make no sense given she isnt able to drive and not lock the brakes other times.
I would look at it as how confident are you in the customers ability to deal with it.
Sounds to me like she isnt able to safely drive the car without abs.
my 2c
Edwin

That's not what happened. She was braking in traffic, the pedal went to the floor and produced no reduction in speed, she pointed the car into the grass on the side of the road very quickly and spun around.

[GeorgeRud]

It's problems like this that make me appreciate my 914-6 all the more. Sometimes simple is better in my mind.

It seems that modern cars are considered disposable since they are not repairable after a few years without spending more than they are worth.

[r_towle]

Ethically you should do what is right for the customer, and advise her of the risks of each choice.
Legally...you could lose your business and house if you don't get a waiver from her.

Rich

[monkeyboy]

I don't think a waiver would do very well in court if she killed someone with her modified brakes. They would still come after you.

I think as a shop, you have to walk away from this one unless she wants to fix it right.

[bandjoey]

Can u prove it's the ABS or could it B possibly something else? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

[rick 918-S]

Don't do it even if she signs a release. The person she crashes into did not sign the release. It's back on your shoulders. If your going to have a long career in the automotive field you need to reserve the right to say no when it's important.

Sometimes shit costs money. If she loves the car she'll either pay for the work or she will save up and pay for the work. Either way she'll pay.

An old retired defense attorney friend had a great saying he would use all the time.

People would give him sob stories all the time trying to defend them for free or discount his fees. He'd say, "Who's got the problem?" "Don't make someone elses problem yours." Then when she's a repete customer how do you charge her. Your her free mechanic.

[rohar]

Ethically you should do what is right for the customer, and advise her of the risks of each choice.
Legally...you could lose your business and house if you don't get a waiver from her.

Rich

Legal is the most base form of ethical. If it's not legal in EVERY way, it's not ethical at all. Waivers are just a cop out on legal. Do it right or don't do it at all.

[Dave_Darling]

I'd be worried that the design of the braking system relies on the ABS to function when at the limit braking is needed. A car with a multi-channel ABS system, for instance, may have some rear brake bias in the system and rely on ABS to keep the rear brakes from locking.

Too many worries. And the ABS module might not be the problem at all. It'd be even worse to disable that and then have the original problem recur!

--DD

[Mikey914]

Sounds like a sensor issue. It would not thow a code as it it working as designed. There is a short (probably in the front) the sensor indicates that a wheel has stopped moving and releases pressure to the brake system. Pretty much what happened. Maybe you can find the smoking gun. If the ABS system "failed" it should throw a code as most have some type of self diagnostic that will trip the light. Not that it couldn't fail, but not as likely as a short.

Hopefully an easy not too expensive fix. Other than that you can suggest the client could pull the fuse on thier own, knowing that it will dissable the ABS, but you would have to advise her that while is solves one problem it could create a greater one, and it's her decision.

You may want to help, but as a professional you can't take on the liability.

[Van914]

If you look you will find problems reported just like this in Caymans and new 911's used at the track. Pedal goes to the floor then comes back.

Van914

[mepstein]

Maybe the answer is to sell the car to a track guy or part it and move on.

[DBCooper]

Ethically you should do what is right for the customer, and advise her of the risks of each choice.
Legally...you could lose your business and house if you don't get a waiver from her.

Rich

This is the best answer. The question was about ethics but most answers have been about about liability, something totally different. To answer the original question about ethics you can't let the lady drive that car the way it is now, you need to fix it. Explain the situation to her, let her both make the decision and accept the consequences. That's no different that what doctors do in difficult situations, counsel the patient, explain the alternatives and consequences, make recommendations, then let the patient decide. And she signs the waiver.

As observation this is already an old car and all old cars get modified, if for no other reason than aftermarket parts are cheaper than OEM. Anyone here using OEM brake pads? Anti-lock brakes may be a safety feature when they work, but when they don't they're dangerous. Register the complaint with the NTSB (www.nhtsa.gov) and see what they have to say, or have the owner give them a call.

Were Boxter's also sold without ABS? If so you're just removing an option. As a parallel BMW motorcycles came with ABS as an option since the early 90's. Most of those units don't work any more, are hugely expensive to fix, and are regularly disabled and removed by mechanics and by owners. Give your local BMW motorcycle dealer a call, see what they do. It might give you some professional guidance about handling the liability.