Another project thread..., with an Audi 2.7T motor/trans....etc... Options

[914_1.8t]

Another project thread...

So I pickup up a stripped tub with Sheridan standard body kit. The car is completely stripped down with nothing but what appears to be a stock front/rear suspension and brakes...nothing else other than a roll cage and some holes in the floor and trunks. Initial plans were to go all out with this project but plan has changed. I ended up picking up another project car (that I've wanted for a long time) and tried to sell this but couldn't.....so I've decided to just build it with whatever parts I have lying around and keep the out of pocket expenses down as much as possible. I'm hoping to keep the budget as little as possible...hopefully under 7k (other than what I already have). Car will be minimalist and have as little weight on it as possible and little to no extras (no carpet, side windows...etc...) initially and just get it running and add items if need be later.

This will be a s-l-o-w project and I will work on it when I extra time aside from my other projects and life in general. I still have to figure out what I want to do with this.

Parts I have in my garage:
-914 Tub w/ Sheridan Kit
-Audi 2.7T Engine (bent valves)
-Replacement Heads/Head Gaskets/Head bolts/Timing Belt
-Stock 2.7T Intake manifold and VR6 TB, TB Cable and Pedal
-Audi 01E 6spd with welded diff, and stock slave cyl
-Cluthmaster Stage 4 clutch with 12lb Aluminum flywheel (clutch disc needs replacing soon)
-GT3071R turbo and GT4088R Turbo
-Tial 38mm WG
-Tial 50mm BOV
-044 Fuel pump
-Summit Fuel cell 16gal
-PWR 2921 4"x8" Barrel air/water Ic (rated to 300hp?) or Garrett 400hp air/air IC
-1.5" Aluminum tube for radiator lines
-18x8.5 Front/18x9.5 Rear wheels with 225/40 and 285/30 tires (5x112 bolt pattern)
-Ebay Racing Seats
-Rx7 Shocks/Spring combo
-(2) 4'x8' Sheets of Sheetmetal


Things I need:
-Radiator and fans/shroud ($200 Ebay)
-Muffler(s), Intake/Exhaust/Exhaust manifold tubing (ss304) and flanges, DOM tubing, etc... (~$1000)
-Porsche 996 Cable Shifter (???...150-200)
-Custom Axles (???...200-300)
-Standalone (SEM) (1200 used)
-Wilwood pedal set ($250 Ebay)
-Gas/Brake hard lines (100)
-Suspension system/brakes (~$2000)
-Vinyl body wrap ($500)
-Hood (???)
-Trunk Lid (???)
-Turn signals and rear lights (???)
-Rear Bumper(???)
-Door handle and mechanism (???)
-Windshield/Rear Window(???)

I still need to decide on the suspension/brakes (front/rear). I would ideally like to get spindles/control arms/brakes from a donor car. Initially I was thinking a 996 (front and rear) but still undecided. I'm trying to figure out what other option are out there? I'd like to get them from a similar sized car (or compact sports car) that already has a good set of brakes from the factory. I'm also determined to use the wheels that I already have (5x112) b/c I'm attached to them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) ....either I will have to get adapters or get a suspension/spindles from a car that is already 5x112. I'm open to any suggestions/ideas?

Car when I received it:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i19.photobucket.com-2149-1320435024.1.jpg)

Ebay seat put in the car:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i19.photobucket.com-2149-1320435024.2.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i19.photobucket.com-2149-1320435024.3.jpg)

With the wheels I want to use (car on block wheels only placed to get an idea of what it will look like:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i19.photobucket.com-2149-1320435024.4.jpg)

[mark21742]

I have a d16 setup at the moment, but working on getting a b16 setup....either way it will be turbocharged too.

[rohar]

Mark, I'll pm you, we'll figure someting out. Don't wanna thread jack.

914_1.8t, a conversation I had with my brother that worked as a design engineer on the V8 quattro amongh other projects:

Me: You saw my latest purchase right?

Brother: You do realize that some really smart people that design things such as cars probably thought of putting really big engines in really small cars. And there is probably a really good reason that these really smart people decided against it. Thought ever cross your mind?

Me: Probably. But if I'm going through all the trouble, while I'm there...

Brother: Yeah, I once saw a great dane mate with a Chihuahua once two. Have you lost your mind?


To be this crazy. Good on ya man!

[mark21742]

I was always under the impression big motors in little cars didn't happen that much because of insurance rates....but I have been wrong before lol.

Can't wait to see your progress!

[yellowporky]

I have a perfect hood and rear lid that we most likely will not use because we are going to use fiberglass. So keep in touch if you are looking for stock lids.
Also the 964-993 pedal assemblies can be found for $150 and they come with the clutch master for the hyldraulic clutch.
I also found stainless down pipes for the s4 on ebay for $170 so they bolt to the turbos and have plenty of length to work with. The boxster s muffler sounds great with this set up and we bought it from parts heavan for $225 and a tip from a local muffler shop for $15. Much cheaper that the $1,000 that you have on your to buy list.
Finding a radiator that we liked was more difficult than i thought it would be. We ended up ordering a Griffen from Summit racing and it is a very nice peice. The fans were from ebay $50 pair.
Hope this helps
Chris

[914_1.8t]

I have a perfect hood and rear lid that we most likely will not use because we are going to use fiberglass. So keep in touch if you are looking for stock lids.
Also the 964-993 pedal assemblies can be found for $150 and they come with the clutch master for the hyldraulic clutch.
I also found stainless down pipes for the s4 on ebay for $170 so they bolt to the turbos and have plenty of length to work with. The boxster s muffler sounds great with this set up and we bought it from parts heavan for $225 and a tip from a local muffler shop for $15. Much cheaper that the $1,000 that you have on your to buy list.
Finding a radiator that we liked was more difficult than i thought it would be. We ended up ordering a Griffen from Summit racing and it is a very nice peice. The fans were from ebay $50 pair.
Hope this helps
Chris

Thanks Chris..let me know about those lids, I want to go fiberglass too...but not in the budget at the comment.

I'll look at the pedals to see if they'll work for me.

The $1000 I budgeted is for raw materials. Ss304 tubing for fabricating exhaust manifolds for single turbo setup, intercooler tubing, downpipe and exhaust including 3.5 mufflers, flanges, flexpipes, and v-bands to connect it all together.

-Sonu

[a914622]

The audi hubs can be turned down to fit in the porsche bearings the you could use the audi CVs and shorten the axles BUT most of the 112x5 have an offset from 37mm to 52mm on the new VWs.(some allroads 25mm) So your ging to need spacers. You should just use adapters like the H&Rs.

The audi 4000 radiator fits the front perfect. Just add 2 holes to mount the bottom and top bar for the top. one motor runs 2 fans.

Add a Volvo theral plate for the oil cooler. use the volvo oil rad. as well. It will keep the oil just right even under full boost for the hall over the mountains.

good luck

[914_1.8t]

The audi hubs can be turned down to fit in the porsche bearings the you could use the audi CVs and shorten the axles BUT most of the 112x5 have an offset from 37mm to 52mm on the new VWs.(some allroads 25mm) So your ging to need spacers. You should just use adapters like the H&Rs.

The audi 4000 radiator fits the front perfect. Just add 2 holes to mount the bottom and top bar for the top. one motor runs 2 fans.

Add a Volvo theral plate for the oil cooler. use the volvo oil rad. as well. It will keep the oil just right even under full boost for the hall over the mountains.

good luck

Thanks for the tip on the radiator and oil cooler/plate...should save me a few bucks.

In regards to the audi outer CV...are you referring to the B5 S4 CV's? And which porsche bearing (from which spindle(s)) can they fit into after turning? For reference here's a S4 Axle for the front:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.034motorsport.com-2149-1320476063.1.jpg)

Update on engine:
Put the kids to bed and wife was busy with some chores so I decided to kill some time in the garage. Started poking around the engine and started disassembling and found the problem. It appears one of the camshafts broke right in half (on pass side exhaust cam)...this explains the loss in compression the previous owner described. He thought his timing belt slipped a tooth but all that looked good. Wow...what bad luck to have a camshaft break in half. The valves did slap one of the pistons leaving some marks but I think I can just sand off the rough/sharp edges and slap on the spare head. I do have a another head and gasket/bolts for the other side but I think I'll skip that as I don't see why I should mess with it? Glad I don't have to tear into the bottom end.

Broken cam....those two lobes in the center should be identical not opposite like in the pic:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i19.photobucket.com-2149-1320476063.2.jpg)

Piston with valve slap:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i19.photobucket.com-2149-1320476063.3.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i19.photobucket.com-2149-1320476064.4.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i19.photobucket.com-2149-1320476064.5.jpg)

Anyways not bad for 30mins in the garage...Should be able to run to the store in the morning, sand the piston a little, clean deck surfaces a bit and put the head on and get the engine timed and ready to rock. I can seafoam it when I start it to clean internals a bit. So far so good...I'll keep updating the thread if there is interest and I appreciate all the suggestions they are helping.

[rohar]

Ok, so I slept on it a bit. I've had so many bad ideas about axles, this tranny and this chassis I forgot some of the good ones.

The Audi tranny is available with 3 different size output flanges. The middle sized one will bolt right up to the 911 110mm CVs. Then the stub axle solution is simple, just do a 911 conversion and redrill the hubs to your desired bolt spacing. Redrilling from 5x to 5x is generally safe.

The Audi stubs should fit a 914 bearing without any machining. It's the same bearing for most audis. When I bought new bearings for the rear of mine, the local german parts shop wanted $175 for 914 bearings so I asked them for a set of A4 bearings. $75 for the same bearing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[a914622]

Its been a long time since i did my looking but if i rember right the top of the stub axle needs a little cut off on the face at 15 deg or it will rub. I was loking at the a4 setup.

jcl

[Mike Bellis]

This is a cool build! And local! Please post lots of pictures, I need motivation to get mine fixed...

[914_1.8t]

The Audi tranny is available with 3 different size output flanges. The middle sized one will bolt right up to the 911 110mm CVs. Then the stub axle solution is simple, just do a 911 conversion and redrill the hubs to your desired bolt spacing. Redrilling from 5x to 5x is generally safe.

I had a FWD Audi transmission/axles bolted up to early 911 hubs in my last build (914 1.8t). However, I think I am going to go with something different this time. I'm determined to go with some sort of a dual A-Arm design for the spindles. So far the 993/996 rear setup is in the lead. For the front...I'd like dual A-arms as well but don't know what to do yet...might end up going complete 993 or 996 setup all the way around to make it simple, get the steering rack as well and have power steering/brakes as well.

Some progress, the engine is rebuild (so so speak) and ready to go:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i19.photobucket.com-2149-1320612774.1.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i19.photobucket.com-2149-1320612774.2.jpg)

IM bolted backwards with VR6 TB...this is how it will sit in the car:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i19.photobucket.com-2149-1320612775.3.jpg)

Had to improvise and make a cam locking bar since I did not have one and wanted to finish this today:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i19.photobucket.com-2149-1320612775.4.jpg)

Also did some trimming on the car...got the trunk cut out (still needs more cutting) and the rear quarters:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i19.photobucket.com-2149-1320612775.5.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i19.photobucket.com-2149-1320612776.6.jpg)

Next up is building some sort of rotisserie so be able to work under the car...the floor needs to be replaced there are holes everywhere. Although the car was primered when I got...now that I'm digging in there is rust that was just covered up. Salil panels will need a little love too.

[914_1.8t]

Still trying to finalize which type of suspension to go with....

Considering the following:]
996/993 -> So far I have been quoted ~$4000-$4500 for spindle/axles/brakes/control arms front and back. I would still need power steering rack.

Pros:
-Nicer Calipers/Brakes
-Axles will bolt up to 01E transmission

Cons:
-Cost
-Will need wheels adapters...dont believe the hubs can be redrilled
-Not dual A-Arm in the front
-Limited to shock/spring combo and mounting in the front

Corvette C5 -> I can get front/rear spindles/brakes/axles (not sure if these will be useable)/control arms/steering rack for about $2000.

Pros:
-These hubs and rotors can be redrilled to 5x112.
-Cost
-Dual A-Arm all the way around (easier to fit)
-Cheaper replacement parts
-Easier to fabricate shock/spring mounting system and lots more option for shocks/springs

Cons:
-I will need custom axles
-Brakes not as nice

I'd love to have Porsche calipers but do I really need them over the c5 corvette brakes for this car? It looks like at least a $2000 saving going this route...plus I like the fact that the front also has dual a-arm setup. What do you guys think? Maybe c5 front and 996 rear? This is really going to be a bastard 914.

[andys]

I like your C5 suspension swap idea. There is plenty of tech info available, and all sorts of parts, custom or stock, everywhere for a lot less money. You might poke around the Factory Five GTM site, as they use Vette suspension pieces on those cars.

Andys

[rohar]

This might seem completely off the wall, but have you given any thought to Miata suspension? Dirt cheep. Dual A arm all around and the subframes unbolt from the chassis so finding mounting points should be a walk in the park. I measured one years ago, and the rear subframe will clear the Audi pumpkin. Lots of aftermarket brakes available too. Not sure how to interface the half shafts though.

[yellowporky]

sent you a pm on the hoods. let me know if you are interested before i list it in the classifieds.
Chris

[914_1.8t]

This might seem completely off the wall, but have you given any thought to Miata suspension? Dirt cheep.

Don't want to go this route...4 bolt hubs.

sent you a pm on the hoods. let me know if you are interested before i list it in the classifieds.
Chris

Chris: I'll give you a call tomorrow about the lids.

As for the suspension/spindles, I think I'm 99% sure to go with the C5 Corvette stuff...only thing holding me back from ordering is to confirm that I can indeed get custom axles made. From everything I read it seem the C5 Stock brakes should be fine. And, since I am on a somewhat tight budget the pricing on this works out good too. The Porsche stuff was coming out to ~4K, the C5 Vette stuff is coming out to 1250 (including the steering rack) and I can easily re-drill the hubs, and it should be easier to upgrade in the future vs. the 993/996.


I'm still thinking about the alterations I need to make to the 914 chassis to accommodate all this.

Currently, I am thinking about cutting off everything behind the cabin and starting with a clean slate. I am thinking about using 2"x3" box tubing and making a frame and welding it into the cabin. I can run the 2x3 along the outsides of the longs and one down the middle...only tricky part will be angling it in the front wheel well area. After the front is done (suspension is in) I can remove all the extra sheet-metal to reduce the weight further. I kind of have something like this in mind (plus a roll cage and welding in 1.5" DOM tubing for further rigidity):
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/image.highperformancepontiac.com-2149-1321506471.1.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/image.highperformancepontiac.com-2149-1321506471.2.jpg)

This will make it easy to remove to lift out the engine/transmission as well if it needs to come out. Plus I need to repair/redo most of the sheet-metal on this car b/c it is rusted badly (many holes). Floor is need of replacing as well as the rear firewall; front trunk is bad as well. What do you guys think? I'm open to any suggestions...hoping I get some ideas from you all.

[Andyrew]

Why not go Audi suspension?

[914_1.8t]

Why not go Audi suspension?

The Audi suspension uses uprights...these uprights extend beyond the top of the tire by a few inches and then re require a couple of additional inches of clearance to mount. There is no room on this car for this type of setup, particularly in the front. The C5 stuff is more compact (vertically) and there is a LOT more flexability. I would have loved to go Audi (this would be the easiest route) but its just not possible for what I want.

[rohar]

C5 seems a good idea money wise, but there's some challenges. In stock form the rear track is 62" while the stock 914 is about 54". The front on the teener is 52". That's a full 10" to make up for in the conversion. All kinds of things get all out of whack if not compensated for.

That said, the front should be pretty straight forward if you grab a custom K member. I've got a great supplier here in town, but they're not inexpensive. Over a grand just for that beastie.

Looking at the stock setup on the rear of C5, it's a bit of a challenge as the upper A-arm mounts aren't bolted to the suspension cradle so something's gonna have to be fabbed.

That's kinda why I was thinking MX5 stuff. The cradles front and rear are complete so there's no math. Track width is only 2" different and the cradle mounts lend themselves to grafting to our chassis with less work.

Besides, the later miata's are 5 lug too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[914_1.8t]

C5 seems a good idea money wise, but there's some challenges. In stock form the rear track is 62" while the stock 914 is about 54". The front on the teener is 52". That's a full 10" to make up for in the conversion. All kinds of things get all out of whack if not compensated for.

That said, the front should be pretty straight forward if you grab a custom K member. I've got a great supplier here in town, but they're not inexpensive. Over a grand just for that beastie.

Looking at the stock setup on the rear of C5, it's a bit of a challenge as the upper A-arm mounts aren't bolted to the suspension cradle so something's gonna have to be fabbed.

That's kinda why I was thinking MX5 stuff. The cradles front and rear are complete so there's no math. Track width is only 2" different and the cradle mounts lend themselves to grafting to our chassis with less work.

Besides, the later miata's are 5 lug too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This should not be an issue. I will be fabricating everything myself...for the front I can place the track width at whatever I like...I should be able to modify the steering rack or purchase a universal one and make it work at any track length. I don't really want to use cradles out of other cars to make things easier, the whole point of this project for me is to have fun building and fabricating. Nothing against the Mx5 stuff but the c5 has more upside for what I want.

Also, this car does have a Sheridan kit on it and should be considerably wider track than a stock 914. Rear track should not be an issue either, it can be set to the desired width and custom axles should do the job. Besides I have a feeling my track may actually be around the same as a C5 or maybe a lil' wider?