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> New A-x, torsion bars?, New A-x, torsion bars?
Brad Roberts
post Aug 4 2004, 08:59 PM
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We make sway bar changes in the lanes... turn the wheel hard right/hard left... easy with one wrench.

I watch the cars during the morning sessions and make suggestion to those I think need it (if they buy from me) I normally know who needs what after 3-4 runs. Tighten this... loosen that... they ALWAYS drop a min. of 2 seconds off their times.

I know it is driver... but you also have to make the driver comfortable in the car. If somebody is slinging the ass end around in their 4cyl car... dial in more front bar.... pretty easy.. now they can lay down the power and keep the ass end planted and the front end in the direction they intended.

I do know it is hard with a two person car...


B
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J P Stein
post Aug 4 2004, 09:10 PM
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SCCA: only the first 3 runs count.

PCA is for fun.
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Brad Roberts
post Aug 4 2004, 09:16 PM
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I personally have it figured out after the second run.... if I'm driving.

Not sure how many people attend your events, but our SCCA events take all day for the runs.. plenty of time to make changes even with two people.

I guess just drive it...
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crash914
post Aug 5 2004, 05:49 AM
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Hmmmmm...

So my set up is very neutral, but....

23mm torsion bars, 22mm sway bar set in middle, 185lbs rear springs on coil overs. Sometimes rear bar, no lsd.....


I kind of like the large sway bar concept..I was amazed at the difference from 22mm sway bar full soft to half hard....now I want more....herb
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krau911
post Aug 5 2004, 05:58 AM
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I'm the orignal poster.. thanks to all for your recommendations......... I have a 19 mm Welt. front sway bar installed... did it myself haha.. ok I know there is adjustment, but which way do I move the adjustment for .....soft/hard//understeer oversteer? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) ? Karl
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Joseph Mills
post Aug 5 2004, 06:40 AM
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Away from the bar for softness (oversteer) and up towards the bar for stiffness (understeer).
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brant
post Aug 5 2004, 08:51 AM
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crash...


23mm front torsions are big!
I've always heard that 22's were really about the limit.

I know some damn fast cars running 22's with 400 rears...

just a suggestion
b
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crash914
post Aug 6 2004, 05:26 AM
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Yea, but they came with the car...


This car is so stiff, you can jump up and down in the trunk all day and it doesn't give....
I almost got a wheel off the grould once....but not quite.

This car is very neutral, once I stiffened up the front bar.....LSD next (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)
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cha914
post Aug 6 2004, 09:46 AM
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While on the topic of swaybars, I need to slap some new bushings on mine (22mm welt bar). Can I do with with gas tank in the car? Just drive the bar out one side, change bushing, same on the other?

Also, are these bushings like the suspension ones where it is recomended to cut groves and fill with grease?

Finally, I have noticed that my bar likes to get "off center" nearly touching the shock on the drivers side while close to the body on the pass side. Is the normal, or is this due to my bad bushings?

Thanks,

Tony
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airsix
post Aug 6 2004, 10:55 AM
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QUOTE(Brad Roberts @ Aug 4 2004, 03:01 PM)
I have said in other posts:

"I'm sticking to the large sway bar stock torsion bar theory. It gives me more room for adjustment"

The Tarret bar or the 27mm Smart bar work VERY well stock torsion bars for anything down too 150 rate rear springs and up too 300lb.


B

I know I'm stepping out of line by questioning the big dog, but my concern about this method is that you end up with HUGE weight transfer when braking/accelerating. You have great roll stability, but get hard on the brakes and you'll have a heck of a time keeping the rear planted. IMHO (spinning 914 footage at 11:00).

-Ben M.
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J P Stein
post Aug 6 2004, 01:31 PM
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QUOTE(airsix @ Aug 6 2004, 08:55 AM)



I know I'm stepping out of line by questioning the big dog.........

Gasp.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif)

You will be ostracized by the bay area 914 Mafia....so I may as well join you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Here's a guy that could benifit from some staging lane car tuning....IF there was anything wrong with his car's handling....which there ain't.

1m FRUN 60 Jim Daniels 94 Mazda Miata 45.104 > 45.052 45.129

Since he is consistent AND quick, changes to the car would be quantifiable...the driver eliminates himself from the equation by being good. Also, this car is ready to go when it hits the staging lanes......by God, it had better be at a National Tour event . All he does is adjust the tire pressures as needed.....then he "just drives".

Once again (for those who missed it). To improve your AX times.....according to SCCA national champs....the order of importance is:

Driver
Tires
Alignment
Suspension

This is for semi stock cars. Get into the Prepared or Modified class & (IMO) those last 3 get shuffled into one.
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SteveSr
post Aug 6 2004, 01:47 PM
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To ask a dumb question about sway bars...... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) what does full soft mean???
No preload???Then as you tighten the adjuster on each side it applys a twisting force that works against body roll???...somebody enlighten me.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

SteveSr
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phantom914
post Aug 6 2004, 02:05 PM
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QUOTE(SteveSr @ Aug 6 2004, 11:47 AM)
To ask a dumb question about sway bars...... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) what does full soft mean???
No preload???Then as you tighten the adjuster on each side it applys a twisting force that works against body roll???...somebody enlighten me.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

SteveSr

No, it is not pre-load. You need an adjustable setup first of all, and slide the connecting point of the droplink (the top end) along the arm towards or away from the swaybar , changing the leverage. Did that make any sense? Someone post a picture please. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

See www.tarett.com for pictures

Andrew
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J P Stein
post Aug 6 2004, 02:12 PM
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With the car sitting on all 4 wheels on a level surface & the down link lock nuts loose, both adjusters should turn freely within a small range...or be slack....no preload.
Preloading is (IMO) best left to someone that really has their shit together. I notice that my 914's front bar will preload itself...or rather the chassis will do it.....this is not good, but I live with it.

Full soft is when the down links are at their maximum distance in the lever arm, away from the bar.
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Brad Roberts
post Aug 6 2004, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE
know I'm stepping out of line by questioning the big dog, but my concern about this method is that you end up with HUGE weight transfer when braking/accelerating. You have great roll stability, but get hard on the brakes and you'll have a heck of a time keeping the rear planted. IMHO (spinning 914 footage at 11:00).


Ben,

question everything. I dont have all the answers... but I learn a hell of lot more dealing with 40+ cars/drivers than the person who owns one and has to deal with it. Nevermind that we can attend AutoX's/Road races 40 weekends out of a year...see where I'm going...

I want weight transfer... and honestly the setup is very comfortable to drive. Modulating the brake pedal is easy.. the car really feels no different than the one with 22's/or 23's... we have run 26's in race cars in the past.. they are physically the largest you can get inside a 914 control arm. I also run adjustable shocks.. set the fronts to full firm and the shocks help slow down the transfer of weight... it is really really well balanced.


JP,

I make changes to people cars that are newbies.. they are showing up without a clue. Very difficult to compare them to a SCCA National champ. I have been in the staging lanes in Topeka.. they make changes... they may not on a local level (especially if they are kicking everyones ass in their class by several seconds... why would they ??)


B
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Trekkor
post Aug 6 2004, 04:15 PM
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Here's a pic of the SRP adjusted at 2/3 soft or 1/3 stiff depending how you look at it.

I run it one click stiffer since the photo- Thanks Brad and Randal! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap56.gif)

KT


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Trekkor
post Aug 6 2004, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE(crash914 @ Aug 6 2004, 04:26 AM)

I almost got a wheel off the grould once....but not quite.



Oh, you mean like this? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rocking nana.gif)

This is my favorite action shot of my car so far.

Now with the rear bar, chassis stiff kit, stiffer bar and properly inflated tires, it doesn't anymore.

Flat and fast is my goal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)

KT


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crash914
post Aug 7 2004, 07:40 AM
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Yea, it is not fast, but it looks really really cool.....My car stays planted, except when I am spinning like a top....
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J P Stein
post Aug 8 2004, 01:51 PM
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QUOTE(Brad Roberts @ Aug 6 2004, 12:27 PM)
Very difficult to compare them to a SCCA National champ. I have been in the staging lanes in Topeka.. they make changes... they may not on a local level (especially if they are kicking everyones ass in their class by several seconds... why would they ??)


B

Actually, there are some good comparisons to be made.

Mr Daniels & his Miata showed up at the PCA AX for a test & tune session......got himself some new trick adjustable shocks. He also had street tires on the car.....didn't catch the make/size. He was 2 sec off the pace for once. I have no doubts that when he puts the Rspecs back on & gets the shox dialed, he'll be faster than before.
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Jeroen
post Aug 8 2004, 04:59 PM
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If you go BIG with a big swaybar in front and stock t-bars, do you need to re-inforce the inner fender / wheelwell (where the swaybar mounts)

Specially with stock springs, I'd think that area would see a lot more stress

cheers,

Jeroen
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