Carnage - Don't Ignore the Green Light, Not for the faint of heart! Options

[ThinAir]

I finally got the case apart on the engine that lost the freeze plug and seized up. The only bearings that froze were the #1 and #3 mains. They spun in the case and the dowels cut a groove in them. Going simply by looks, the case appears to be just fine.

The bearings that came off the crank have the the number 021.105.531.E on them along with a KS symbol, VW logo and picture of an elephant. I've heard somewhere that this probably means that the crank is still the original grind and has never been turned.

If this is the case, does this mean there is any hope for salvaging the crank? Or is it a lost cause simply because the bearing froze onto the crank surface?

Here's a photo of the whole crank, pictures of #1 & #3 follow.

[ThinAir]

#1

[ThinAir]

#3

[Brad Roberts]

Ernie,

I wont swear to it.. but it appears that engine was assembled incorrectly. They mashed the pins into the bearings because the bearings where not in their proper location when the case halves went together... this caused a "tight" clearance issue and the result was: the bearing seized to the crank... just my thoughts..


B

[sgomes]

Brad... I was wondering if it ever scares you how much you know about cars (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) I know it scares the heck out of me.

[Brad Roberts]

With these cars... its the same things over and over and over again... nothing really new. My biggest challenge is remembering issues I have seen 15 years ago.

Main bearings rarely spin. Normally there is a something really wrong.

The marks look like the bearing spun.. but it didnt spin all the way around.

Interesting to say the least.


B

[ThinAir]

The engine seemed to be fine until the freeze plug blew out and I lost all the oil. Of course I didn't realize exactly what had happened until later. I thought I had plenty of oil and it was just an electrical problem.

I'm pretty sure that's what caused the failure. My question is whether I just throw it away or if there is any chance that the crank can be salvaged.

[Jake Raby]

Brad is spot on. Someone missed the pins with those bearings.

it amazes me that it ever started..

I hate it when idiots work on these engines! Thats how they get a bad rep!

[Brad Roberts]

Jake,

I was thinking (stand back).. when I have assembled them wrong in the past the damn thing doesnt even turn over BEFORE you put any case bolts through it. The wieght of the case havles on the bearing pins would cause it to screw up.

Do you think they assembled this and never tried to turn it over prior to firing it ? They had to adjust the valves ???


B

[Brad Roberts]

OK.. going back to my original thought.. they just barely missed the pins. The bearing rotated when the halves where being placed together (which is why we see the slight rotational marks)



B

[Brad Roberts]

Ernie,

that crank should turn fine. They might even leave the rods .std and do the mains .010


B

[Mike9142.0]

The engine was runing fine and had been for months. It was runing (staling when hot) when the PO pulled it out of a rust bucket.
One of the oil gally plugs poped out and he ran it out of oil, the bearings froze to the crank and spun in the case.
As far as I could tell this engine had not had the case split before.

[ThinAir]

This was a running engine that I bought from Steve Malmz to go into my 72. After I bought my 73 and the cam went flat I swapped this engine into the 73. Steve had said it ran fine and the only problem he reported was that it wouldn't keep idling after it was warm. I adjusted the valves and never had another problem.

Well, no problems until I ran it out of oil. That's when the engine froze up. Amazingly, the only bearings that froze were #1 & #3. All the rods turn quite freely.

So at least it sounds like the crank could eventually be saved. That's the bottom line of what I wanted to know. There's no reason to hang on to something that has no chance of being resurrected, but 2.0L cranks are hard to find so I didn't want to presume that it was a lost cause.

One thing I learned through this, besides the obvious expense etc. of an overhaul, is that it is a ROYAL PAIN to split a case when you can't rotate the crank! The pistons won't slide through to the inside of the case so you have to split it, then rotate enough so that you can position the piston to drive the wrist pin out, then repeat for the other pistons.

At this point I'm just cleaning up parts for storing them. The original 73 engine is being overhauled to go back into the car. Everything is ready to go except heads and lifters. Once I get heads back from Brad I'll start the rebuild while I wait for Jake's new lifters to get through another round of testing.

It WILL be driven to WCCC2005!

[Jake Raby]

Brad, some people think that new engines are suppose to turn over tight..... NOPE, if that baby won't spin easy with ONE FINGER, its too damn tight!

Someone missed the pin for sure.

As for the lifters.. We are trying two new processes to the set up before further testing.. Looks like *possibly* the cams do not have enough taper to correctly give the correct surface speed for the lifters to rotate... OR that the surfaces of the cam are too rough..

The cam is having two lobes micropolised, and the other two re-tapered..

All 8 lifters are being resurfaced as well and they are going back in their same holes for another round in the spintron.

[Malmz]

(momentarily out of deep lurk mode)

Just a little history on the motor. It came in a rust bucket from Venice CA. I drove it from the seller home. The car had been serviced by Ottos for a number of years.

Ernie drove it for quite some time before the plug popped.

It looks like it had been together and running for a long time. Tons of oil leaks... It may never had been split from the factory like Mike said.

Ergo, either the thing was mis-assembled long, long ago yet still running with the pin out, or the pin shifted / jumped when the oil failure happened and it just looks like it was assembled incorrectly. Personally, I can't see it running for years and years with the pin out of place, but I'm no lower end mechanic.

HTH,
sm

[McMark]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I don't buy the assembled wrong theory from the images. Damage was from lack of oiling causing bearing spin and damage to the bearings from those spinning forces.

[ThinAir]

I don't buy the assembled wrong theory from the images. Damage was from lack of oiling causing bearing spin and damage to the bearings from those spinning forces.

Yup. My question was never about how it happened - I know that because I'm the one that ignored the green light (thinking it was an electrical problem with the light) and found the plug on the ground with 3 quarts of oil. The question was just whether the information on the bearings was evidence that the crank had never been turned. If true then the question was whether there was any possibility of turning the crank for reuse or if I should just toss it. Brad's answer indicates that the crank is probably not a lost cause so I'm hanging on to it.

[McMark]

Take it to a machine shop and have them measure it. The specs are in the engine section of the Haynes manual. It's probably fine to turn down.