 Timing Question, Got the dizzy out - crisis averted |
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| bigkensteele |
  Nov 15 2011, 09:11 PM
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#1
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Major Member  Group: Members Posts: 2,197 Joined: 30-August 04 From: Cincinnati, OH Member No.: 2,660 Region Association: South East States 
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Question: I can only see the timing mark on the impeller when the rotor is in the 2 and 4 position. When I had the engine on a stand, I could see it at 1. What gives?
Lead-up story: As some of you may have read, I finally got my car running on Sunday after a total reseal project. It is a 1.8 with L jet, and I installed a pertronix while the motor was out. I also replaced the dizzy O ring, but I never loosened the timing plate. I was able to get it started on Sunday, and it ran pretty rough for a while and finally warmed up to a point where it was running OK at best. Knowing that the timing was only in the ballpark, last night, I had the brilliant idea of loosening the plate and do a little tweaking. I went a bit to far and it died. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif) So I moved it back to the approximate starting position, and it would not start. That is when I decided to do it the right way, but I now my timing mark doesn't show when the rotor is on 1. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif) |
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Replies(1 - 19)
| underthetire |
Nov 15 2011, 09:27 PM
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#2
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,062 Joined: 7-October 08 From: Brentwood Member No.: 9,623 Region Association: Northern California |
When you loosened the clamp, the dizzy probably poped out of the groove.
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| Woody |
Nov 15 2011, 09:34 PM
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#3
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Sandbox Rabblerouser and head toilet scrubber Group: Members Posts: 3,858 Joined: 28-December 10 From: San Antonio Texas Member No.: 12,530 Region Association: Southwest Region |
Did the gear turn when you pulled the dizzy? Yes you may be off a tooth or two.
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| bigkensteele |
Nov 15 2011, 09:38 PM
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#4
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Major Member Group: Members Posts: 2,197 Joined: 30-August 04 From: Cincinnati, OH Member No.: 2,660 Region Association: South East States
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QUOTE(underthetire @ Nov 15 2011, 07:27 PM)  When you loosened the clamp, the dizzy probably poped out of the groove. The only thing that bugs me about that explanation is that it is 90 degrees out, not 180. The rotor is still turning when I rotate the engine (jacked up, with one wheel blocked in 5th). Is it plausible that the dizzy "tabs" are running on top of the drive roughly 90 degrees off? |
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| underthetire |
Nov 15 2011, 10:06 PM
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#5
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,062 Joined: 7-October 08 From: Brentwood Member No.: 9,623 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(bigkensteele @ Nov 15 2011, 07:38 PM) QUOTE(underthetire @ Nov 15 2011, 07:27 PM) When you loosened the clamp, the dizzy probably poped out of the groove. The only thing that bugs me about that explanation is that it is 90 degrees out, not 180. The rotor is still turning when I rotate the engine (jacked up, with one wheel blocked in 5th). Is it plausible that the dizzy "tabs" are running on top of the drive roughly 90 degrees off? Try turning the rotor without turning the wheel. Think you'd know pretty quick |
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| PancakePorsche |
Nov 15 2011, 10:13 PM
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 236 Joined: 29-July 11 From: Southern California Member No.: 13,373 Region Association: None |
Hopefully you did not turn over engine (even by hand) with the dizzy out. It can jump teeth and sometimes damage the crank gear. Reset the dizzy gear @ TDC as per Haynes manual.
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| Gint |
Nov 15 2011, 10:15 PM
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#7
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Mike Ginter Group: Admin Posts: 16,075 Joined: 26-December 02 From: Denver CO. Member No.: 20 Region Association: Rocky Mountains  |
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
If there is no downward pressure on the dizzy and you turn the rotor (loosen the clamp and pull the dizzy up a millimeter or two), if the teeth aren't engaged on the drive gear, you'll know it right away because it will turn. If the teeth are engaged, the rotor won't turn. And if the teeth are riding up on top of the drive gear, turning the rotor should enable you to re-engage them. If it still won't start, go back to #1 TDC and start over. |
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| bigkensteele |
Nov 15 2011, 10:50 PM
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#8
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Major Member Group: Members Posts: 2,197 Joined: 30-August 04 From: Cincinnati, OH Member No.: 2,660 Region Association: South East States
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QUOTE(Gint @ Nov 15 2011, 08:15 PM) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) If there is no downward pressure on the dizzy and you turn the rotor (loosen the clamp and pull the dizzy up a millimeter or two), if the teeth aren't engaged on the drive gear, you'll know it right away because it will turn. If the teeth are engaged, the rotor won't turn. And if the teeth are riding up on top of the drive gear, turning the rotor should enable you to re-engage them. If it still won't start, go back to #1 TDC and start over. I followed Gint's advice and pulled the dizzy out a hair, and sure enough, the rotor turned freely. I tried to re-index it back to TDC/rotor at the 1 position and push it back down. I could never get it to mate, so I decided to just pull the whole dizzy and take a look. Mind you, I have a new O ring on, so it is pretty tight. I got it out to the point where I can see the O ring, but it will NOT come out any further. Feels like the bottom of the drive is interfering with the case. I just have this feeling that this is one of those "OH FUCH" moments. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) |
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| Valy |
Nov 16 2011, 03:25 AM
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#9
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,676 Joined: 6-April 10 From: Sunnyvale, CA Member No.: 11,573 Region Association: Northern California |
Calm down, its just the dizzy alignment. It may be that the gear jumped a tooth or more but that's not a big deal.
Put it back and visually check then the fan indicates TDC of cylinder 1. Now check the dizzy rotor and see what plug wire it points to. Adjust the dizzy a bit so it will point straight to one of the wires. That's your new #1 wire connection. Connect all the other wires in the ignition order and try to start it. If it doesn't start, rotate the dizzy a bit and try again, till you find the spot. Then adjust the timing, even if the engine is still cold and re-adjust when the engine is hot. |
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| TheCabinetmaker |
Nov 16 2011, 06:49 AM
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#10
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I drive my car everyday Group: Members Posts: 8,300 Joined: 8-May 03 From: Tulsa, Ok. Member No.: 666 |
QUOTE(bigkensteele @ Nov 15 2011, 10:50 PM) QUOTE(Gint @ Nov 15 2011, 08:15 PM) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) If there is no downward pressure on the dizzy and you turn the rotor (loosen the clamp and pull the dizzy up a millimeter or two), if the teeth aren't engaged on the drive gear, you'll know it right away because it will turn. Of the teeth are engaged, the rotor won't turn. And if the teeth are riding up on top of the drive gear, turning the rotor should enable you to re-engage them. Ig it still won't start, go back to #1 TDC and start over. I followed Gint's advice and pulled the dizzy out a hair, and sure enough, the rotor turned freely. I tried to re-index it back to TDC/rotor at the 1 position and push it back down. I could never get it to mate, so I decided to just pull the whole dizzy and take a look. Mind you, I have a new O ring on, so it is pretty tight. I got it out to the point where I can see the O ring, but it will NOT come out any further. Feels like the bottom of the drive is interfering with the case. I just have this feeling that this is one of those "OH FUCH" moments. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) The hole in the case is smooth and straight. If the diz pulled up past the ring it should pull out. Get the diz out and set it aside. Use a magnet to pull the drive gear. Set the engine to tdc #1. Using the magnet, place the drive gear back in with it oriented like in the haynes manual. If it doesnt want to go all the way down, place the car in 5th gear and gently rock the car till it drops in place. You can use the magnet to move the gear back and fourth. Make sure the washer is on the bottom of the drive gear. Use a little thick grease to hold it in place. Dont let it fall in the block. You can get it running like valy said, but you won't have the full range of motion. Hope this helps. Btw, your timing will not change when the engine warms up. |
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| Valy |
Nov 16 2011, 10:52 AM
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#11
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,676 Joined: 6-April 10 From: Sunnyvale, CA Member No.: 11,573 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(vsg914 @ Nov 16 2011, 04:49 AM) Btw, your timing will not change when the engine warms up. That's correct but, the engine speed changes when it warms-up. Since the timing is checked at certain RPM, it should be checked on a warm engine, especially at idle. |
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| bigkensteele |
Nov 16 2011, 12:48 PM
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#12
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Major Member Group: Members Posts: 2,197 Joined: 30-August 04 From: Cincinnati, OH Member No.: 2,660 Region Association: South East States
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QUOTE(Valy @ Nov 16 2011, 08:52 AM) QUOTE(vsg914 @ Nov 16 2011, 04:49 AM) Btw, your timing will not change when the engine warms up. That's correct but, the engine speed changes when it warms-up. Since the timing is checked at certain RPM, it should be checked on a warm engine, especially at idle. I will time it cold to get it running well and then again when it warms up. I got the dizzy out, by the way. The plate was hanging up on the tin, but it felt like the drive was hanging up in the shaft. I was very much relieved to see no brass shavings and the drive was indexed right where it is supposed to be. Now, I just need to pop the valve cover to make sure it is tdc for 1, rather than 2. Is there a better way to tell that doesn't involve spilling oil all over my heat exchanger? |
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| SirAndy |
Nov 16 2011, 01:17 PM
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#13
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Resident German Group: Admin Posts: 41,645 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(bigkensteele @ Nov 16 2011, 10:48 AM) Is there a better way to tell that doesn't involve spilling oil all over my heat exchanger? Chop Sticks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) |
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| bigkensteele |
Nov 16 2011, 01:27 PM
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#14
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Major Member Group: Members Posts: 2,197 Joined: 30-August 04 From: Cincinnati, OH Member No.: 2,660 Region Association: South East States
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QUOTE(SirAndy @ Nov 16 2011, 11:17 AM) QUOTE(bigkensteele @ Nov 16 2011, 10:48 AM) Is there a better way to tell that doesn't involve spilling oil all over my heat exchanger? Chop Sticks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) I was actually thinking about pulling the #1 plug and probing for the piston top. A chop stick might be just the tool! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) |
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| SirAndy |
Nov 16 2011, 01:33 PM
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#15
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Resident German Group: Admin Posts: 41,645 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(bigkensteele @ Nov 16 2011, 11:27 AM) QUOTE(SirAndy @ Nov 16 2011, 11:17 AM) QUOTE(bigkensteele @ Nov 16 2011, 10:48 AM) Is there a better way to tell that doesn't involve spilling oil all over my heat exchanger? Chop Sticks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) I was actually thinking about pulling the #1 plug and probing for the piston top. A chop stick might be just the tool! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) You must be new here ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=22782 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chowtime.gif) |
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| 914rat |
Nov 16 2011, 01:43 PM
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 279 Joined: 3-July 06 From: Maryland Member No.: 6,362 |
I just went over this same thing 2 weeks ago.Put a screwdriver in #1 spark plug hole and rotate the rear wheels in 5th gear til it reaches TDC then make sure the cooling fan mark is in the groove.Lift the drive gear up until it turns and line up the slot in the drive gear like in the pic in the thread Sir Andy referenced.Take note that the slot is off centered make sure you get the proper sides lined up exactly as in the pic.It will run once you do this.
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| bigkensteele |
Nov 16 2011, 02:29 PM
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#17
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Major Member Group: Members Posts: 2,197 Joined: 30-August 04 From: Cincinnati, OH Member No.: 2,660 Region Association: South East States
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QUOTE(SirAndy @ Nov 16 2011, 11:33 AM) QUOTE(bigkensteele @ Nov 16 2011, 11:27 AM) QUOTE(SirAndy @ Nov 16 2011, 11:17 AM) QUOTE(bigkensteele @ Nov 16 2011, 10:48 AM) Is there a better way to tell that doesn't involve spilling oil all over my heat exchanger? Chop Sticks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) I was actually thinking about pulling the #1 plug and probing for the piston top. A chop stick might be just the tool! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) You must be new here ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=22782 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chowtime.gif) Not new here, but I missed that one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) Priceless! Straw it is. Ironically, Opera Guy joined almost exactly 2 months before me. He is 2628, and I am 2660. |
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| TheCabinetmaker |
Nov 16 2011, 02:36 PM
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#18
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I drive my car everyday Group: Members Posts: 8,300 Joined: 8-May 03 From: Tulsa, Ok. Member No.: 666 |
QUOTE(bigkensteele @ Nov 16 2011, 12:48 PM) QUOTE(Valy @ Nov 16 2011, 08:52 AM) QUOTE(vsg914 @ Nov 16 2011, 04:49 AM) Btw, your timing will not change when the engine warms up. That's correct but, the engine speed changes when it warms-up. Since the timing is checked at certain RPM, it should be checked on a warm engine, especially at idle. Haha. Only the idle speed changes. 3200 rmp is 3200 rpm. hot or cold. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I will time it cold to get it running well and then again when it warms up. I got the dizzy out, by the way. The plate was hanging up on the tin, but it felt like the drive was hanging up in the shaft. I was very much relieved to see no brass shavings and the drive was indexed right where it is supposed to be. Now, I just need to pop the valve cover to make sure it is tdc for 1, rather than 2. Is there a better way to tell that doesn't involve spilling oil all over my heat exchanger? QUOTE(SirAndy @ Nov 16 2011, 01:17 PM) QUOTE(bigkensteele @ Nov 16 2011, 10:48 AM) Is there a better way to tell that doesn't involve spilling oil all over my heat exchanger? Chop Sticks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) What ever happened to him? |
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| SirAndy |
Nov 16 2011, 02:41 PM
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#19
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Resident German Group: Admin Posts: 41,645 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(vsg914 @ Nov 16 2011, 12:36 PM) What ever happened to him? Last Active 5th December 2006 - 05:03 PM (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) |
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| bigkensteele |
Nov 16 2011, 02:42 PM
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#20
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Major Member Group: Members Posts: 2,197 Joined: 30-August 04 From: Cincinnati, OH Member No.: 2,660 Region Association: South East States
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Now that I am looking at member numbers, have you noticed yours, vsg914? Or shall I say SATAN? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)
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