Type I Oil pump for front mounted oil cooler?, Does anything else need to be done other than griding the tab? Options

[yeahmag]

Those both solve different problems.

[yeahmag]

The GB cover prevents too much pressure from entering the lines. This can help save expensive parts like oil coolers, fittings, etc... I've never run one even on my old drag bug that spun to 7500 rpm. Just be careful when the oil is cold.


The Weltmeister pistons (or HD springs) allow the engine to run higher oil pressure internally. Good for higher rpm applications and to remedy worn out bearings and the like - anything that would cause lower than desired oil pressure.

[Jake Raby]

I always highly recommend not mounting coolers up front with wet sump engines. The only oil pumps I have found to be effective for this volume wise are the Pauter wet sump pumps( that one is now NLA) and the revmaster pump with 38mm gears.

I always have better luck with a super efficient cooler mounted closer to the engine, using the least amount of hose possible. Of course, no opinion on this topic will be the same.

High pressure oul relief pistons and other gadgets are band aids that often cause more issues. We have one 640HP engine and even it uses stock oil ores sure relief components.

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Jan 26 2012, 09:10 PM

[ChrisFoley]

...
180F should be a nice target temp for the sump oil, although under 200F is still very nice temp.
...

I disagree with this.
If the oil isn't getting to at least 210 there's no need for additional cooling capacity.
Its pretty hard to get the oil up to 210 in a stock 1.7L.

[ThePaintedMan]

Okay, just wanted to say thanks to everyone for the thoughts and replies. Clearly this is an issue that has people pretty divided, but I think thats a good thing. It means people are thinking and using logic - this works well for me! After reading back though all of the responses, I'm going to put a game plan together before buying any parts. I'll be using a little of everyone's advice, I think. My biggest problem right now is visualizing what it will look like, and understand what each piece is. I don't know my way around these motors yet, so I don't know what some of the terms are - "full flow", where the bypasses are, the plugs, etc. Just a little more work than what I thought originally. Chris - just curious, you don't think this car will run over 210 if pushing it hard on long straights at Sebring? And aaron, if the HD springs allow higher pressure inside the engine, is this what I want, since I'll already be adding a pump that will be increasing pressure? I guess I just don't understand their purpose. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[flash914]

I'm newer to air cooled engines mostly I do LARGE cummins diesels. As a genral rule too much oil pressure is a waste of horse power. 10 pounds per thousand rpms is good to go in the chevy race world (40 lbs at 4000rpm). Otherwise all the oil is getting hotter because it is being pushed through the relief valves. This is call oil shear and when a valve is left part open or a lift cylinder is bypassing it gets HOT. Just my 0.02 Gordon

[Jake Raby]

Equip the engine with proper instrumentation and place senders in the smart locations. Monitor CHT under the spark plugs and OT in the oil sump. The oil in these engines isn't "hot" till 225*. Even if you hit a 225F oil temp and the oil you are using has enough high temperature viscosity to maintain oil pressure- run it.

The SAE standard for high level viscosity is set at 212F, not all oils that are a 40XX grade or 50xx grade at 212F are still that same grade at 225F, some fall like a ton of bricks at 215F, others love temp and will maintain stable oil pressure clear past 240F and some clear to 300* in our exotic lines. If the oil is a 50 grade at 212, but it drops off to a 30 grade at 240F you will have bigger issues and lower pressures.

The moral of the story is to do what the engine needs and determine that by LISTENING to what it WANTS. This is why you have gauges- lots of up front preventive fixes are simply catalyst for failure, or simply aren't needed and do nothing except complicate the car/ engine and empty your wallet.

Hell, I WANT my engines to run 215-220F oil temps all the time, until that happens the impurities in the oil aren't "cooked off".

Try it out, see what you have and develop a plan based on what you NEED. Sebring has some of the most adverse conditions found in the US during the summer with high heat, 140* track temps and super high humidity while being very near (at) sea level. The main thing that will keep your engine coolest is proper optimization of the tune for these conditions. Better tuning= efficiency; efficiency= cooler running, better running and more fun.

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Jan 26 2012, 11:25 PM

[ape914]

...
180F should be a nice target temp for the sump oil, although under 200F is still very nice temp.
...

I disagree with this.
If the oil isn't getting to at least 210 there's no need for additional cooling capacity.
Its pretty hard to get the oil up to 210 in a stock 1.7L.

At a little past 210F the oil pressure take a noticable drop off (20W-50 oil)

If you cant push past 210F with the highest load on the hottest day, you probably dont need a extra cooler.

I was hitting 230F or so, with pressure drops. and then added a cooler, and see 180F in normal driving, and peaks near 210F when driving hard on hot days (100F).

If you use big fat hoses and lines to the cooler, front mounted can work, you just need to make sure you dont have to much pressure drop from small hoses and such.

also note that if you see 180F at the sump you can be sure some of the oil got hotter than that for impurity burn off. The oil that just prior to entering the cold sump was at the heads , incontact with very hot head metal, so that oil more than likely exceeded 210F before it hit the cooler sump oil.

[ChrisFoley]

...
At a little past 210F the oil pressure take a noticable drop off (20W-50 oil)
...

That's with the oil you're using.

The Redline oil I used to run in my racecar didn't noticeably drop in viscosity until it reached 230F (measured at the dry sump tank after going through the cooler).
As Jake wrote in the above post, the drop off occurs at different temps for different oil/additive formulations.

[SLITS]

I was running thru the desert on the hottest day of the year, pulling grades and saw 245 oil temp .... no pressure drop whatsoever ... Kendall Liquid Titanium 20 - 50 with a quart of Lucas Oil Additive.

[LotusJoe]

I've run my 914 in 6 LeMons races. Half with the stock setup and the other half with an extra oil cooler. I've yet have to run the cooler fan. I can't tell any running temperature difference. I don't think I would go to all the trouble of putting the cooler up front. Seems like a lot of work for very little if any gain.



Good luck with Chump cars.

[ape914]

...
At a little past 210F the oil pressure take a noticable drop off (20W-50 oil)
...

That's with the oil you're using.

The Redline oil I used to run in my racecar didn't noticeably drop in viscosity until it reached 230F (measured at the dry sump tank after going through the cooler).
As Jake wrote in the above post, the drop off occurs at different temps for different oil/additive formulations.

Brad Penn 20w-50 is what I have been useing.

[Jake Raby]

Remember: Cooling the oil won't cool the heads.

[ThePaintedMan]

This is great stuff guys! I think this will be a valuable thread for all. Again, its interesting to see the very different viewpoints on this matter. I'm glad I asked - I've learned a lot so far. Jake, you're right for sure. I need to start with some gauges. When I had the car running, it had no oil temp or pressure gauges, but the idiot lights never turned on just running up and down the neighborhood. Its certainly on my list of things to do. I've got a taco plate on the way. Now just waiting to find a deal on an oil temp and pressure combo to start. The cylinder temp gauge will follow. For the oil pressure gauge, do you all recommend the 80 psi or 150 psi version? The 150 is a bit cheaper on PP.

Joe, thanks for the info about Le Mons. I was sure that running one of these that hard would require a cooler. Interesting that you don't really see a difference. I'll add that to my considerations.

Thanks again everyone!

[mrbubblehead]

i used dakota digital gauges. the are suppose to be very accurate. oil temp, oil pressure, and cyl head temp.

[Mark Henry]

ThePaintedMan PM'ed me on FF oiling, thinking I'm the expert, I'll answer him here. I wouldn't consider myself an authority, although I've installed many systems on type one and 4s. In a quality type 1 build it is an absolute must as they don't even have an oil filter. In a type 4 you can get away with just the type one pump and a blank cover using the existing oil system. That said if I was to add a AM cooler the only way I would do it is with a FF system. I think all-in-one filterpumps are total crap and I'd never use anything but a steel pump cover.

There are many threads on the web about FF oiling, just do a search.
This thread is very good on understanding how the oil system and full flow oiling works:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic...asc&start=0

[ape914]

ThePaintedMan PM'ed me on FF oiling, thinking I'm the expert, I'll answer him here. I wouldn't consider myself an authority, although I've installed many systems on type one and 4s. In a quality type 1 build it is an absolute must as they don't even have an oil filter. In a type 4 you can get away with just the type one pump and a blank cover using the existing oil system. That said if I was to add a AM cooler the only way I would do it is with a FF system. I think all-in-one filterpumps are total crap and I'd never use anything but a steel pump cover.

There are many threads on the web about FF oiling, just do a search.
This thread is very good on understanding how the oil system and full flow oiling works:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic...asc&start=0

dont forget the steel pump covers mucs be very thick or have a raised edge around them to give stiffness to the cover. (as the stock Bug cover is) i have run into flat steel covers (no raised edge) about 3/16 inch thick that would bow out as the four bolts were torques down to specification, the bow int eh middle was on the order of .005 inch, That more than the thickness of the pump gasket, talk about potential pressure loss. Be sure your oil pump cover is lapped flat too.

[ThePaintedMan]

I can wrap my head around FF oiling I think. But I still don't have a definitive answer on whether a stock pump is adequate to get the oil all the way up front, or whether a 30mm pump is necessary. I think Jake said that he believed even a 30mm is inadequate.

What I also don't understand is what to do about the added pressure of a large pump, even in a FF application. FF oiling doesn't do anything to change the pressure inside the motor, correct? So a 30mm pump could up the pressure, which I would have to deal with, correct?

Sorry, I feel like (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif) but I'm still very confused.

[ChrisFoley]

You don't need a bigger oil pump.
You don't need a front mounted oil cooler.
Both would be a waste of your limited resources.

There's really no need for you to convert to a FF oil pump cover either.
If you feel that you must install an auxillary cooler, a small unit mounted under the trunk, plumbed off a sandwich plate will be sufficient. You won't even need a fan or a thermostat.
If anything, you might want to disable the bypass built into the filter bracket.
Spend your money on instrumentation and tuning the engine so it doesn't run too lean and overheat.

[Eric_Shea]

I'm still very confused

Because you don't seem to want to take the advice of the "experts" on the subject. One who has reinvented what it means to rebuild a T4 motor and the other who is actually doing what your contemplating doing and has shared his results. Sorry... don't mean to sound harsh but, a lot of times people get their head around something and refuse to let go.

Not confusing to me... If Jake told me it probably wasn't needed and Joe told me it made no difference, I'd look elsewhere on where to waste my money. Sounds like slot machines would net you a better return. At least you get free drinks while you're playing.