Calling all Production racers, Got questions Options

[Brett W]

Can I use 914-6 5 lug hubs, wheels rotors, etc?

What are the differences in the 914-6 Caliper and the M- Calipers?

Can I leave the engine lid out and build a tray for the carbs?

What about Scoops mounted in the rear window?

Can I leave out body plugs to feed air to the oil coolers?

Can holes be cut behind the Fog light mounts to feed brake ducts or oil coolers?

Do I have to use the Ginther style windscreen?

Can I use multiple tubing sizes in the cage as long as I follow the GCR for the main hoops and side bars?

Can I go to full Glass fenders and Quarters?

How do you guys do the doors? Can you still open them or weld them shut, etc?

Does air have to be fed through the dryer duct for the engine cooling or can I pull air from the open cockpit area?

Can I put a fairing over the passenger side?

[Aaron Cox]

914/6 Front calipers are in fact M calipers.
the rears are like the /4's with bigger pistons

[Brett W]

Any reason I can't run Stock 914 Front on the rear?

[VegasRacer]

Check the rule book for the group / groups you plan to run with.
What is OK for SCCA and PCA might not be legal in HSR or POC.

[Brett W]

SCCA E-Production.

[ChrisFoley]

Can I use 914-6 5 lug hubs, wheels rotors, etc?

What are the differences in the 914-6 Caliper and the M- Calipers?

Can I leave the engine lid out and build a tray for the carbs?

What about Scoops mounted in the rear window?

Can I leave out body plugs to feed air to the oil coolers?

Can holes be cut behind the Fog light mounts to feed brake ducts or oil coolers?

Do I have to use the Ginther style windscreen?

Can I use multiple tubing sizes in the cage as long as I follow the GCR for the main hoops and side bars?

Can I go to full Glass fenders and Quarters?

How do you guys do the doors? Can you still open them or weld them shut, etc?

Does air have to be fed through the dryer duct for the engine cooling or can I pull air from the open cockpit area?

Can I put a fairing over the passenger side?

5 lug - yes.
914-6 vented up front, stock or 914-6 rear or 914 front at rear - yes.
Engine lid must stay, tray for carbs is ok under the lid.
scoops - no.
plastic plugs - yes, metal plugs - questionable.
cutout behind fog lights - IMO,NO.
Any windscreen - ok.
use 1 1/2" od x .095w DOM for entire cage (unless you are using CrMo). other bars, any size you want.
Full fenders and quarters - yes.
Gutted stock doors on hinges, with stock latches or pins to hold them shut.
Dryer duct method - ok, air from cockpit - definitely not, snorkel above engine lid - if you try it and get away with it I'll do it too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
No fairing or tonneau on pass side.

Get a rule book!

[Brett W]

I am reading a 2001 and 2002 rules set. I don't want to buy and start building to a 2004 rules set if they are going to dramatically change things in 2005 and since SCCA won't publish the rules until Jan or Feb I don't want to wait. Is that cheap or what?

Why no air scoops? I see nothing in the rules about it. it says airboxes are free. I don't think you would have to make any non original openings if you mounted them directly to the engine lid. What about a small flap that would direct air down onto the engine lid, kinda like what Jon Rogers did on his roof top but mine would be mounted in the bottom of the rear window.

"Air cleaners, velocity stacks, and air supply ducts and boxes are unrestricted provided no modfication of the body or chassis is required to accomodate their use."

To me that means as long as I don't have to make any modifications to use them I can bolt them to the engine lid and not have any problems.

[groot]

Chris is spot-on with his guidance. He knows the rules well.

I see your reasoning regarding the air scoop, but I think if you pushed it, we'd end up having to run that damn rain tray. There are no provisions to "add" anything to catch air. The only legal air ducting is the removal of front lighting equipment in the "Lights and Lenses" section.

The big changes in the production rules are centered around illegal cages. If you build a closed car, build it legal and you're all set. If you build an open car, make sure you build a full-width main hoop that's legal otherwise and again you're all set. If you want an open car with a partial width main hoop, you may be in for a bumpy ride regarding the rules.

[Brett W]

I am going to an open car, planned on running a full width cage with a low fron hoop.

Can I make a GT engine lid or do I have to keep the stock grill? would that be considered a non stock opening?

[groot]

I guess I'm not familiar with the GT engine lid.

The rules say "the hood, hatchback and deck lid may be replaced with components of an alternate material." So, I'd say you have to stick with the stock engine lid, but I guess one could debate that the engine lid is a deck lid, but I don't think that's the intent of this rule.

Word of warning on the low front hoop, full width main hoop.... Unless you're really short, plan on using some kind of layback seat, not a FIA approved seat. I bought a beautiful FIA-approved seat, but couldn't get it low enough to keep the main hoop anyway near the targa bar. So, I had to go with a Kirkey layback seat and I laid it back much further than the 20 degrees that's build in. I had to cut the wings off of it so I could steer. Now, there's not enough side bolstering and I'm bracing myself with the steering wheel. I'll fix it, but I just wanted to warn you on that.

[ChrisFoley]

I am going to an open car, planned on running a full width cage with a low fron hoop.

Can I make a GT engine lid or do I have to keep the stock grill? would that be considered a non stock opening?

Brett,
the scoops in the rear window opening is an untested area, not specifically covered in the rules, kind of like the snorkel idea I mentioned. If you feel you can justify it within the rules, go for it but, be prepared to get protested as soon as you're faster than an experienced competitor.
The GT lid is a definite no-no. I have issues with some of the chassis mods other people have done on 914s and I'm prepared to protest when I think that is what gives them an advantage over me. Even the dryer tube through the chassis is illegal in a strict interpretation of the firewall rules, and I might go after that someday too. Not that I want to whack my fellow 914 drivers, but this is about winning and losing, at the end of the day.
Everyting in the PCS is open to interpretation, and until the protest/appeal process is fulfilled it isn't set in stone.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

[maf914]

Even the dryer tube through the chassis is illegal in a strict interpretation of the firewall rules, and I might go after that someday too.

I've seen several SCCA 914's run the stove pipe through the cockpit for engine cooling. I guess since they have not been winning the Runoffs lately this has not been challenged.

At the Rennsport Reunion this year at Daytona, I saw the Cogbill PAP 356 that was a past Runoff champ. It was on a trailer and appeared to be in a little rough condition, perhaps not being used. I was surprised to see it had the stovepipe treatment. I didn't know the 356 crowd also did this.

[don9146]

I thought that the Ginther-style windscreens were illegal now. If the short screen was grandfathered-in (i.e. built befroe the rule change), it was legal. All new to the class 914s had to be built with the stock roof.

Later,
Don

[Brett W]

No all 914s can run topless. There are no new cars allowed to go topless.


Chris according to my rules:

The openings created by the removal of front lighting
equipment, as well as any other similar openings in the front
of the car, may be used to duct air to the engine, radiator, oil
cooler(s), and front brakes. Such ducting may pass through
interior panels for these purposes.  

I read this to mean the dryer duct is legal.

Kevin my seat is going to be something not seen before. Yes I am short 5' 6-7" so I shouldn't have a problem. The GT lid is basically a full mesh engine lid instead of metal and mesh.
Does it not fall under an alternate material? Is a hood not something that covers the engine

[Brett W]

Chris what in your opinion determines the line between an mechanical advantage and driver skill? Would a car that was built to the maximum designed potential be an advantage?


As soon as my registration comes back I want to ask this question to the production forum as well.

[ChrisFoley]

9. Body/Structure
a. 1. "Lightening: Component parts of the car's body/structure, e.g. hood, doors, Hatchback, and deck lid, may be lightened, provided that structural rigidity is appropriate and that the original appearance is maintained save for those alterations permitted by these rules. No non-original openings shall be created. Chemical removal of metal ("acid dipping") is prohibited."

This is enough for me to say the GT lid is not allowed.

a. 15. "Heater plenums that do not serve as a major part of the structure of the firewall may be removed or modified. Any other firewall modifications are prohibited unless specifically approved and listed on the specification line for the vehicle."

That says to me that creating a hole in the firewall for an engine cooling air pipe is illegal.

b. "Integrity of Structure: All permitted alterations, modifications, components, or safety structure installations are understood to be additions to the basic vehicle. No part of the body/frame or unibody shall be altered or substituted unless specifically authorized by these rules or by the vehicle's specification line."

This closes the door to lots of things people would like to do.

Also, you can't use what is allowed in one rule to override something that is specifically outlawed in another rule.

[Brett W]

Sounds like there is as much ambiguity in the production rules as there is in GT. Time for a re-write to clarify many of the contradictions. So who wins in a protest, if one rule says you can and one sorta says you can't.

[Brett W]

Chris you gonna be around tonight? I'd like to call you and talk some about this. Email me your number.

[ChrisFoley]

Chris you gonna be around tonight? I'd like to call you and talk some about this. or you can call me and I'lll call you back. 2565397623 Email me your number.

Was out working on my race car. It's gotta be on the trailer and ready to go by dark tomorrow. You can call me next week if you want, while I'm at M-O. 8606478719. Otherwise after I get back.
You're right about the rules being ambiguous, but they will never be cleared up IMO; too many people like it this way. The only way to force the issue is to try stuff and wait to get protested, or protest guys doing stuff you don't agree with. That costs $$ so it doesn't happen too often unless it's blatant, and gives someone an unfair edge. Not only that, the stewards seem to discourage protesting, even though the rules regarding the protest/appeals process are pretty clear, lol.

[Brett W]

Good luck at MO. I'll wait until you get back as you will have enough distractions there.

You make a me feel a little better about things after reading the rules all day today and talking with my regional tech inspector.