Vintage Race prep, Prep to circa 70 specs Options

[airkewl]

I race a 2.0 liter 911 with SOVREN, (there is a race this weekend for anyone ierested at Pacific Raceways Kent).

I talked to Rich about the rules, which he seems to think unfairly target him and his car.

Our basic rules are quite simple. We run under the SCCA 1969 GCRs, and accept cars whose production serial numbers prove they were manufactured before the end of 1969. (We also accept FIA papered cars who can prove their modications were permitted for the class they intend to run (G1, G2, G4) in 1969). Under the SCCA rules we will allow some 1970 model year cars to participate provided they were produced in 1969 (serial number before Dec 31, 1969) and are essentially a continuation of the series. But they must run as model year 1969. This means for 911s, even though 1970 brought with it a 2.2 liter motor, we have to run as 2.0.

One of the atractions of vintage motorsport is that, unlike SCCA or other current racing, we attempt to fix a point in time and in so doing, avoid the arms race that accompanies new models being intorduced year over year. In modern racing, if there is a new car in a particular class who maxs out the formula to its advantage, then you either need to get that car, or resign yourslef to being beated.

Some vintage organizations allow a rolling window of acceptable cars. Perhaps 30 years old, for instance. This does not provide the level of stability that our memebers have voted for over the years. Wit a rolling window, it is easy to see, by looking back in time, what the winning formula will be, and build or buy a car accordingly. Most have made significant investments to build their cars according to the rules, and as a club we strive to keep things fair for all under those rules.

The 914 was produced as a model year 1970 car, and was never recognized under the 1969 SCCA GCRs. And worse, the car Rich is trying to get entered, is a 1974 car.

What he is asking for, is actually change to a basic tennant of our charter and rules. Any such change, to allow 1970, or in Rich's case, 1974 cars in, needs to be voted in by a majority of the membership. From time to time this makes the annual rules change ballot, and in every case this has been defeated by a significant margin.

While Rich seems to think that this represents a terrible inflexibility on the club's part, it is in fact the membership's will. And yes it represents a biased or vested interest viewpoint. We have investments in legal cars, built to the spirit and letter of the rules which are well documented and available.

So Rich, we certainly encourage new members and will try to be as supportive and mentoring as we can. But don't make changing the club rules a prerequisite for your participation. Get a legal car and come out and have some fun. If a Porsche is what you want, we accept 911s, 912s and 356s; take your pick.

Tony

[Don Wohlfarth]

Airkewl, great explanation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap56.gif)

[john rogers]

As an owner of a 1973 914 I was told the same thing when I wanted to join VARA several years ago although they do let in 914-4 and -6 if they were 1969 or 1970. So I joined HSR West which is much more liberal as their idea is since the 914s all look the same what difference should it make? After a year or so they started the 2l challange series on the west coast based on what was happening in races on the East coast and I have been with that group for a while. I finally did join VARA last year as they mod'd their year limits to cover cars that are externally the same but run over a set year limit which made sense to me. I guess I am lucky that I live in San Diego where the level of snobbery is not quite so high as it is in some other parts of the country that the race group organizers force you to change cars or not race at all. Most folks I know are not rich enough to do that or were thinking way down the road when they bought a 914 to say that they woulkd some day want to race it against other old cars and find today they can't. As I have said before if I knew I was going to race vintage years ago I would have bought a Formula Vee from someone that was retiring from vintage racing and already had all the stickers and log books that were needed and not have done all the work I did. But then again making my car into what is is was one of the reasons I bought it in the first place! I would find it amazing if someone on vacation showed up a a North West area vintage race with petigreed 934 from Europe and was told, sorry you can't enter, go away? I would think there would be a "catch all" class to cover the "mongrels" and other strange machinery that shows up since turning would be racers away does nothing but hurt the sport of vintage racing???!!!

[914werke]

Tony you seem to have taken my post as some kind of personall attack?
Nothing could be futher from the truth.
Having been involved in club racing in the Paciifc NW for the past 20 Years indeed my bias is definetly toward the rolling window approach, as that is how both local and one national clubs race rules, I have competed in are structured.
The effect is to cull the uncompetitive machienary and reduce the # classes required to meet the intrest of the membership thereby providing MORE TRACK TIME to that membership.
In MY OPINION If all your interested in doing is trailering your vehical to the track, polish it in the Pits and occasionally parade it around the circuit, then it shouldnt be termed racing, call it what it is ..collecting.

You seem to place a fair bit of stock in this concept of fixing a point in time so as to avoid being beaten....? By your own "tenents" thier are no winners losers or points awarded in these "races" so what differance does it make if the definition of vintage moves forward with each passing year?

Your point about my particular car being a 74 is irelevent as no significant changes were made to the model in question from its inception (in 1969 for the 70 model yr) to 1974. A point which we have debated before. By this reasoning if my car was a 71 911 and was prepared to the specification of a 69 it would still be disallowed. Silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

Your comment about many existing member a haveing made "significant investments" is really a telling one. The reality is that the make-up of the membership is predominatly older and affluent. The cars in some cases are extreamly valuable, lets call it what it is exclusivity and snobbery.

But hey, its your club! More power to ya. Its my choice to either Join ya and work the system from the inside (including changing the rules) or go elseware.
For now I will go where the club places more of an emphisis on driving and less on the pedagree or value of the vehical.

So Tony If you wish to continue this dialog lets take it off this board. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wavey.gif)

[brant]

I have 2 separate points to make:

1) a question. John and Tony, which tires are you allowed to run. Locally (RMVR) there has been great debate about tires due to the limited selection of 60 series profile. The rules require 60series profile and producers for this are drying up. The battle has gotten to the point that it is possible people will have to start using street tires soon. I'm just curious how VARA and SOVREN have addressed the problem.

2) Rich.. lighten up. If I wanted to go racing with PCA club racing they would make me buy a porsche and not allow my ford focus to enter.

I outlined previously my own quest with my local vintage club, but the bottom line was that I wanted to join and bought a car that will meet their rules. If I brought a modified/coil-overed monster z06 corvette to the party I could beat everybody. I think there is some merit to not allowing newer vehicles in. Thats the SCCA. No doubt a 1976 930 could make more horsepower than a 40thousand dollar 1967 911S. But many would rather see the classics run.

I waited 12 years for RMVR to allow 914's in. They finally did change their rules to allow up to 1972. (previously it was 1967 and older). During the 12 years, I contemplated and test drove a truimph gt-6, and mg sprite as prospective race canidates. I decided to pass and play in other venues. When the rules changed I started my new project.

I would suggest you join the club and vote to change the rules, or start your own club with the rules you like. If they are not real "racers" and are only interested in polishing their cars, then find a club of competetive like minded individuals to yourself and don't create so much anxiety.

$.02
brant

[Scott S]

I have been dissapointed at the lack of diversity at the RMVR races. I know that these races are not a car show, but as far as full fendered sports/GT cars go the RMVR seems to be almost closer to an MG/Sprite car club. I am jazzed that you are building something different Brant, but also frustrated that you have to race with the big bore mustangs and vettes.
I agree with the ever updating 30 year window. I am concerned that the younger generation will have little or no interest in cars they cannot relate to, and clubs will start to have shrinking membership and/or fade away.

[john rogers]

This answer will for sure stur things up as I run Goodyear slicks!!! I have all the receipts from when the car was bought new and the there put on the car when it was first raced with PCA in the 1970s. The original owner kept every piece of paper for the money he spent on the car. I guess this is what is called "grandfathering" since that was what it always raced with. In VARA it gets an "X" since it is not an SCCA production type of race car which is very fine with me. In the HSR and HSR West Porsche challange series they use V700 Victoracers which for sure are not a vintage type of tire BUT are much safer!

[Bleyseng]

Scott, I think that they don't care as they will continue to race and polish their cars until its too late and interest has faded away.
The racing scene is just barely alive as is since the track has sucked for years and its the only local track.

Geoff

[ArtechnikA]

...I agree with the ever updating 30 year window. I am concerned that the younger generation will have little or no interest in cars they cannot relate to...

i think it's not for nothing that the Monterey Historics are run in chronological order. the guys running 100-year-old Model T's on Saturday morning are, i'm sure, having a great time but 10 laps of those guys is an eternity... attendance starts to pick up around midday, when the featured marque and cars from the 1950 and newer start appearing. since it's a weekend event Sunday morning's attendance seems a little better, but i just can't summon that much enthusiasm for 1930's Formula Juniors.

part of the problem is of course the tires. the local vintage guys running 356's and early 911's have to run on 60-series street tires, even though Goodyear was supplying the Blue Streak Sports Car Special racing tire to sports cars in the early 70's. with increased cornering potential comes higher speeds and more attention to safety - and full FIA/SCCA cages don't look, fit, or work right in very early cars. (can you imagine a Model A with a full SCCA cage ?)

1970's sports cars and sports prototypes ran race tires, and now it's a very different kettle of fish. cutting things off before the IMSA days and 935's seems okay to me now, but i don't think you'd find many people outside the hardcore vintage community that think a 1975 (pre Porsche turbo) car is anything but old enough to qualify as 'vintage' ...

[campbellcj]

Maybe it's just me...but it seems pretty ridiculous in my mind that a 30 year old 914 does not qualify as "vintage". Sheesh.

Fortunately there are plenty of groups and events around here to choose from. As B said recently, if you had the time and money you could drive track events 3+ days a week without leaving California, no problem.

[rhodyguy]

i think if your car is registered to an ore org you can race as a guest with sovren. i think. the thought of some guys showing up with their 14's and 240's ( low buck), driving away from their little lolas, and other vintage gear (high buck) makes them cringe. oh but you can race post 70 fancy schmancy cars, a shadow comes to mind. the canadian crowd shows up to race. lots of cortina's, datsun 510's, a rover or two, tigers, you get the picture.

tracks are a big issue up here. the old sir, portand, and abottsford b.c. are the only three road courses that come to mind.

kevin

[Lawrence]

Maybe it's just me...but it seems pretty ridiculous in my mind that a 30 year old 914 does not qualify as "vintage". Sheesh.

I agree, Chris. But it all depends on your perspective.

I've been talking to the two sanctioning bodies that run "replica" races (TSD rallys from through Mexico to Guatemala) to commemorate the Carerra Panamericana. Their limit for entrance, even for exihibition, is 1965.

I'm trying to convince them that my 1970 car only has the same technical advantages as Porsches available pre 1965 - 4 wheel disk, independent suspension, 2.0 /6 cylinder motor, etc.)

It's an uphill battle, and I'm not sure that I'll win.

[Don Wohlfarth]

Sorry guys, I pretty much agree with the vintage guys. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
If you want to race your car you look at the rule book and build your car to whatever class you want to run. The rules don't have to make sense, be fair, or anything else. If the rules say they will not accept a car after a build date of X and your car has a build date of Y you can't run your car. If you want to run with this group find a car with a build date of X and go for it.
If the members of this group decided that they wanted a fixed window of time I think you should respect that decision. You don't have to agree with it.
To carry this one step further (with the distinct possibility of pissing a couple of people off) I object to an outsider walking up to this group and telling them that they should change the way they run their organization.
They will either flourish by gaining enough people that agree with their vintage concept or they will wither away.

[jimtab]

I have to agree with Don, they have a static club position. It is no different from the situation at the Masters, you want , as an outsider, to have a club change the way they do their thing. There is no reason that a private club should be forced to change from outside pressure. If we're going to do that let's start with clubs like NAMBLA, there is plenty of venues to race 914 cars with competative situations, if the club wants to race old cars they should be able to do so. Just my 2 cents.

[campbellcj]

I agree that no club "has to" change their rules just because people ask. It's their right to do whatever they want.

Personally don't really care if certain clubs want to stay "stuck" in the 50's and 60's. I love watching those cars and maybe I'll own one someday.

For now, there are enough other clubs where I CAN run my 914, so I don't have to waste my time arguing about rules/build dates with the vintage fanatics.

But I wonder if we will be able to run our 914's in vintage events in 10 more years? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[Lawrence]

If the members of this group decided that they wanted a fixed window of time I think you should respect that decision. You don't have to agree with it.
To carry this one step further (with the distinct possibility of pissing a couple of people off) I object to an outsider walking up to this group and telling them that they should change the way they run their organization.

I agree with Don. He's absolutely right.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif) That said: the clubs involved have an appeal/justification process that they've set up to allow as many people as they reasonably can to enjoy the rally.

I won't cheat, nor will I whine if my request is turned down. But I will make a request, under their rules and procedures.

All they can tell me is no. If so, I plan to plan and drive the route myself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/boldblue.gif)

-Rusty

[airkewl]

On the tire question, we do indeed have a real problem of supply in the 60 series, and right now our rules say you have to run 60 series tires. The problem child size seems to be in the 185/195/205 60 15's which is a popular Porsche size for 911s and 356s, but it is also the tire size used by some Alfas, Triumphs, Volvos and others. But other groups with diffferent sizes are also running into supply problems.

Our group has always required DOT tires, with the original intent that they would be readily available and keep the costs down. But the answer may be to allow special race rubber in the right sizes, provided they are readily available. There are street tires available, and one of our members tried some H rated tires and they worked, although they were slow. If everyone runs them, then the speed difference is negated. But some of us have a real concern at running on H rated tires when we have a speed potential of 130 MPH.

Frankly we don't have any answer yet. SOVREN is also part of the broader VARA group, and all clubs share this problem.

The obvious answer is to allow 50 series tires which can be readily found, but that tends to go against the purists who want to maintain the period asthetics. There is actually nothing in the SCCA GCRS which mandated 60 series tires. It is just the practical reality is that is what you could get then, and most want to maintain that look. But the practicality of a reasonable supply may force us to 50 series.

[brant]

I appreciate your reply.

I just wanted to hear from an actual person that this was the case out there. The problem is the same here.

Locally we are allowed to run blue streak vintage tires, and I'm hesitant to go onto an H rated street tire and run in the same run group with mustangs and corvettes on much faster rubber. (I'm afraid that the speed differences will be a danger).

If everyone has the same tire then it will be fine, but I'm afraid that as long as there are tires available for the big bore cars, then a solution will not be a priority.
Also, I think the porsche people locally are the squeeky wheels and this has become an annoyance to the management.

Personally, I'd like to go to the 50 series tires and be done with the whole tire debate.. but we'll see what happens.

thanks again for your time
brant