Early 911 front suspension, almost on topic Options

[lapuwali]

I just recently purchased a '67 912, which has the early 911/912 front suspension. I'm finding that the ball joints on these units to be NLA, and it's looking like I may need to swap to the later units just to get new ball joints.

I'd like to keep as much of the stock setup as I can, mostly for cost reasons, so:

Did they also switch to the 3.5" caliper spacing with the new ball joints? Can the old front cross-member be used with newer A-arms? Hubs are compatible? Tie rod ends?

Would 914 parts work (keeping the 912 front hubs)?

[ArtechnikA]

I just recently purchased a '67 912, which has the early 911/912 front suspension. I'm finding that the ball joints on these units to be NLA, and it's looking like I may need to swap to the later units just to get new ball joints.

Did they also switch to the 3.5" caliper spacing with the new ball joints? Can the old front cross-member be used with newer A-arms? Hubs are compatible? Tie rod ends?

Would 914 parts work (keeping the 912 front hubs)?

some of the racer types have reasons for using these, but you need a REAL good reason and the desire and ability to make many extensive modifications to reinforce them. you need something from '69 to '89 ... '73+ is best for the new (wedge pin) ball joints.

SOME '73->'89 cars have 3,5" brakes. many do not. you'll need to decide what kind of dampers you want to run to get the right kind of strut.

not sure what you're trying to accomplish tho - is this a 5-lug 914 conversion, or are you trying to update a 912 ?

yes, you can use newstyle A-arms on the same crossmember - that didn't change.
i'd expect you'd want new tie rods anyway - you can find Turbo tie rods complete for a little over $100 and the "non-Turbo" ones are less. but AFAIK, yes, they're the same...

hubs are different, especially if you're talking about using 3,5" calipers, ALL of which were for vented disks. i frankly don't recall if EARLY ('67-ish) 911S had vented disks. i think so. but no 912 ever did ...

914/4 parts are completely different, unless you want to use COMPLETE (4-lug...) 914/4 struts. i've never seen a retro-converted 4-lug 912, so you could break some new ground here ...

[fiid]

I have a pair of 911 A-arms you could put on there. I also have a set of 914 struts with koni inserts. Put this all together and you'd have 19mm torsion bars, 914 brakes (same size as the 912 I think), and the new style ball joints. You ought to put new pads and disks on this setup though, but the calipers are there and have speed bleeders in there. This would take you down to 4 lug though.

Let me know if this is interesting to you. The Koni inserts are about 18 months old and have about 2000mi on them (tops), and cost me $400 new, so like $200 for everything would be great.

[Cap'n Krusty]

I can probably supply the ball joints, but I can't look for them until Monday ................. The Cap'n

[lapuwali]

Rich, all I trying to do is replace a set of old ball joints on a SWB 912. However, unless the Cap'n has a set, they're basically NLA.

My ideal would be to replace as little as possible on the 912, but still be able to use later ball joints. It appears that I have to AT LEAST replace the strut and A-arm. The question is, what else would I have to change, if anything? If there are struts that accept the 912 front hubs and brakes, but have newer ball joints, that would be the best thing. I was asking about the 3.5" caliper spacing only because I DON'T want it, since I know that won't work with the brakes I have.

The 914/4 parts are similar-looking (except for the hubs, of course). Are they different in other ways? I only ask because I figure they're easier to find used, and accept the newer ball joint. However, if the 912 hubs and brakes don't fit, that's no use to me.

Perhaps this isn't the easiest route to take, either. Swapping to a really common setup, like a complete SC or Carrera front end, would probably be easier, if more expensive.

fiid, thanks for the offer, but the car has nice 6x15 5-lug Fuchs on it now, so I don't really want to consider going to four-bolt. New shocks, bushings, and ball-joints are needed, and if I could just buy the ball-joints, the rest of the parts are still available new.

Cap'n, if you have them, I'll be happy to take a set of the old style ball joints off your hands.

[Britain Smith]

I have a complete front suspension from a '69 912 that you could replace all of it with.

-Britain

[914ghost]

I kinda just went through the reverse of what you're doing- AND just sold the set decent ball joints I had (cheap)-
I stripped a 67' 912 and was going to use the suspension on the 914. No can do.
The bottom line - to go to later stuff you gotta switch the WHOLE front end. Not the steering gear I think, but the suspension, brakes and all.
No way to adapt any of the late stuff to early that I know of.
And can't see how using 914 stuff would help you- if you have to go through all the work why not get an actual "upgrade"? The later'ish 911 stuff is good - get some relatively better brakes, watch out for physics though it'll bite yer butt. (like putting big calipers on and not having a nice M/C to back it up).
Check the Pelican parts 911 board OR 912registry BBS, there's quite a few 911/912 parts cars these days- you could probably get a set of ball joints cheap that will get you a few more years.
Bob O

OR! Buy Britain's 911 suspension...easy!

[lapuwali]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif)

For the Cap'n, in case he has the time to dig up his set of early ball joints...

[Downunderman]

I recall that there is some incompatibility issue with late ball joints and early struts. I had to change to late struts. I think the diameter of the shaft which goes into the bottom of the strut is different.

[ArtechnikA]

the diameter isn't -supposed- to be different, but the early clamp-bolt design often permits slip and enlarges the socket in the base of the strut. the later style ball joint is vastly superior to the early stuff, tho, and i can't recommend the early type unless you're trying for a Parade concours win ...

[Cap'n Krusty]

No luck. The Cap'n has come up dry on the early ball joints. Worldpac doesn't have any either, but there are some on order. Might be wise to look elsewhere. Try PAP, they've got a lotta old stuff....................... The Cap'n

[lapuwali]

Rich, this is only a daily commuter car. I'd much rather just replace the two parts that are bad for $250-300, rather than the entire bloody thing for $800-1000. I'm not out to win a concours, nor am I out to have the best front suspension available. I'm just trying to replace a common maintenance item that has, unfortunately, become hard to find. I'm not trying to "upgrade" the car. I have no need to "upgrade" the car. I'm not racing it, or even autocrossing it. It's just a daily driver, and I expect the stock parts to be plenty good enough. The ones on the car have managed to do the job for 37 years now. If I can get even half that from the new set, I'll be perfectly happy with them...

In any case, since Mssr. Larson is saying no way, it looks like I'll need to upgrade, anyway. Sigh. Thanks for looking.

So, '73 and later are the best to go for? What's the chance the SWB brakes will fit on here, or will I need a complete front end including calipers?

[ArtechnikA]

sent you a PM pointing you to a possible source.

i understand where you are coming from.

[ArtechnikA]

just for the record, there are -3- kinds of front suspension of more-or-less interest to us.

the kind Wali's dealing with are the v-e-r-y early short wheelbase 911/912 parts that predate any 914 and are generally not interesting or discussed in a 914 context.

then there's the "early" 911 (and 1969 912) style that is also what was used on the 914.6; these struts (and the similar-but-different contemporary 914/4 struts) used a clamp-bolt balljoint connection that eventually permitted movement and soon wore out the socket in the base of the strut, rendering them unusable. big-brake 911's, all 911's from about 1972, and '73+ 914/4's used the balljoint/strut commonly called the "late[r] style" that used a wedge bolt balljoint retainer.

we don't talk much about the SWB parts. they're "pre-early"...

[Britain Smith]

I am pretty sure that Rich at HPH has them...give him a call and check. 650-364-6234.

[lapuwali]

Thanks all (and Rich). Just called HPH, and none in stock, but he thinks his supplier has them. We'll see. Rich, I'll try your source, too. Britain, if I strike out, you're probably going to be cheaper than most...