Running Hot on the Highway Options

[ChrisFoley]

There are some motorcycle oils that still contain enough zinc.
I don't have a list though.
If a particular oil meets the API SM standard it definitely doesn't have enough zinc.

[bembry]

1. What is the safe range for oil temps? Is 240 too hot?

2. Are those little dipstick thermometers accurate?

3. Where can I get my hands on an O2 meter to check my mixture? Do you have to go to a shop?

[mrholland2]

Zinc? Do we really need zinc on a fully rebuild motor that's broken in???

I'm using Castrol 10 W 30

[ChrisFoley]

Zinc? Do we really need zinc on a fully rebuild motor that's broken in???

How long do you want your fresh engine to last?
Oil purchased at your FLAPS isn't a good choice to protect against cam'lifter wear.

[mrholland2]

I've asked for oil with zinc and I get looked at like I"m nuts, including the place that has a guy that has been a previous Porsche owner.. .

Educate me please.

Zinc? Do we really need zinc on a fully rebuild motor that's broken in???

How long do you want your fresh engine to last?
Oil purchased at your FLAPS isn't a good choice to protect against cam'lifter wear.

[wingnut86]

I agree with Rich's take on Chris as well.

Plus, his horizontal cooler is "Cool Beans"...

[kerensky]

If I can't find oil with zinc, can I just scrape the galvanized coating off of a few nails and dump it in the oil? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Rand]

FWIW, there are some oils left.
I've rambled already. Take it for what it's worth. Don't complain.
http://randbaldwin.com/?p=326

[Rand]

Zinc? Do we really need zinc on a fully rebuild motor that's broken in???

I'm using Castrol 10 W 30

Yes. Especially if air-cooled.

[Rand]

If I can't find oil with zinc, can I just scrape the galvanized coating off of a few nails and dump it in the oil? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Right, run with that. Just don't breath the exhaust. Haha.

[jcd914]

I've asked for oil with zinc and I get looked at like I"m nuts, including the place that has a guy that has been a previous Porsche owner.. .

Educate me please.

Zinc? Do we really need zinc on a fully rebuild motor that's broken in???

How long do you want your fresh engine to last?
Oil purchased at your FLAPS isn't a good choice to protect against cam'lifter wear.

A good article here: http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html


Jim

[ape914]

I would suggest you listen to Chris.

Chris has taken the time to develop a 4 channel EGT system, a CHT system, and an AFM system that he trusts.

Based upon those three levels of research and testing, its obvious to me that he really cares alot about heat and mixture on these motors...

He has done quite a bit of testing on both street cars and track cars to learn tons about how to manage heat.

He even has is own horizontal cooling fan setup that he makes.

With the level of his real world testing, I would trust his results quite a bit...

He may not have invented some of what he sells, but he has tested enough of them to trust what he sells as good technology....

My point would be, listen to Chris.

rich

Well, what Chris has done may be nice, accurate, and works on his car. I too have worked with instrumented 914 cars, head and oil temperatures, and wide band mixture gauges. Spark Plug color was also checked for different test conditions.

We have hooked up several MPS to work from inside the cockpit where an assistant can tweek them while on a flat level test run.

After collecting lots of data, what we found to be true on the way these cars are set up.....Lower temperatures occured near where I suggested, a richer mixture. Leaner mixtures, not even as lean as Chris suggested caused over heating in little running time.

These tests performed on two engines, both 96 mm pistons, one a Raby FI cam, one an Elgins FI cam. SS heaters, and Bursch exhaust, stock 2.0 l D-jet. 91 Oct Fuel. 28-30 degree advance. fuel pressure varied 28 to 34 psi. approx 75-85F ambient.

I cant explain the differences in results, but my reported results are not a "mis-conception".

I suggest anyone with a desire to tweek the MPS have some basic temp and O2 gauges and abiltiy read spark plugs to confirm the best adjustment for their engine.

At anyrate take both advices for what they are worth, and try your self. You know now that even engineers with well thought out experiments can get differing results.

It should be clear that I care about these engines and their cooling, and mixture needs. (which is really not uncommon at all within the classic car hobby population)

I'd like to hear about R Towle's own MPS test results, rather than hear someone parrot another experimenters results.

R Towle...Did Chris really develop the Four Channel Exhaust Temp Gauge that can be trusted??? How old is Chris, he must be over 100? Amazing he still races.

[ape914]

And I talk with my dad a lot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
He's a PhD aerospace engineer and has more than 60 years experience flying small planes with aircooled engines. He tends to maintain a larger safety margin than I do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I talked to my Dad last night.
Aerospace engineeer, not a pilot, but he works on stuff that goes a lot higher (past edge of solar system) He has had plenty of experience as a test enginner for all sorts of fixxed wing and rotor craft. He does car stuff to on the side, including thermal testing of components for Telsa cars. Oh and he has been an aircooled motor mechanic since 1958 as a hobby.

Your Dad and my Dad have a lot in common, maybe yours can take my Dad flying sometime.

Oh this is so warm and fuzzy, feels like family.

[ape914]

I agree with Rich's take on Chris as well.

Plus, his horizontal cooler is "Cool Beans"...

Wingnut, do you have some test results you'd like to share?

[ChrisFoley]

...
Your Dad and my Dad have a lot in common, maybe yours can take my Dad flying sometime.

Oh this is so warm and fuzzy, feels like family.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grouphug.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Just stop by my shop sometime with your Dad.
If my dad's not travelling, there's a good chance he'll be nearby.
He loves to show off his Ryan STA restoration project in the corner of my shop, and his Bonanza is hangared only 15 minutes away.

If you don't live anywhere near Hartford, don't let that stop you.
Elliot Cannon was here from CA, and Mary Shortridge flew in from Kansas with her father and uncle for a visit.

BTW, I'm nowhere near 100 years old. My dad is only 83. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)


What did one firecracker say to the other?
.
.
.
My pop's bigger than your pop!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blowup.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

But seriously,
If one has adequate instrumentation and knows what to shoot for, lean cruising with carbs or FI is an excellent choice for cool temps combined with great fuel mileage.
Here's a little light reading on the subject: Mixture Management and Cylinder Head Temperatures

[ape914]

...
Your Dad and my Dad have a lot in common, maybe yours can take my Dad flying sometime.

Oh this is so warm and fuzzy, feels like family.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grouphug.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Just stop by my shop sometime with your Dad.
If my dad's not travelling, there's a good chance he'll be nearby.
He loves to show off his Ryan STA restoration project in the corner of my shop, and his Bonanza is hangared only 15 minutes away.

If you don't live anywhere near Hartford, don't let that stop you.
Elliot Cannon was here from CA, and Mary Shortridge flew in from Kansas with her father and uncle for a visit.

BTW, I'm nowhere near 100 years old. My dad is only 83. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)


What did one firecracker say to the other?
.
.
.
My pop's bigger than your pop!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blowup.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

But seriously,
If one has adequate instrumentation and knows what to shoot for, lean cruising with carbs or FI is an excellent choice for cool temps combined with great fuel mileage.
Here's a little light reading on the subject: Mixture Management and Cylinder Head Temperatures

So, how does mixture affect cht’s? Here is Lycoming’s chart showing, in a general sense, how mixture, egt, cht and power are related:






Well a bit of data is better than the daddy bragging, or mindless parroting.

The refereanced chart shows cool running at rich mixutes and in lean, but at rich mixtures power is higher. So have it either way, trade off either way.

Although engineers may not always agree, both are generally right.



As for Parrots who post with no first hand knowledge. Parrots are just bird brains. I object to someone saying to listen to some opinion over another becuase in part, his instrument are ASSumed better while not knowing anything about the instruments, nor technique used by the other party, or claiming that only one view point is backed by someone that cares about these issues, impling the other party does not care. Bird brained logic at work if you listen to parrots.

[bembry]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif)

[mrbubblehead]

i am running the amsoil hot rod 5/30wt- zinc fortified oil. 28 degrees full advanced svda. idf 40s. with my idle jets as lean as i can possibly get them. some where in the 16 -17 A/F at cruise....and my mains are jetted to 12.7 a/f. its been right around 108 degrees on my way home from work all week this week. my oil temps peak at about 225 and my cylinder head temps are between 360-370. i am using a 4 channel air craft cht guage. digital a/f gauge and digital oil temp gauge and digital oil pressure.

im gonna look up my instructions for my svda and see if it says the same. i got mine from john also. seems strange he would tell you 38 at full adv.

the vacuum advance should only be kicking at part throttle. (light load). then beyond that it should settle back down to 28 degrees.

[r_towle]

I would suggest you listen to Chris.

Chris has taken the time to develop a 4 channel EGT system, a CHT system, and an AFM system that he trusts.

Based upon those three levels of research and testing, its obvious to me that he really cares alot about heat and mixture on these motors...

He has done quite a bit of testing on both street cars and track cars to learn tons about how to manage heat.

He even has is own horizontal cooling fan setup that he makes.

With the level of his real world testing, I would trust his results quite a bit...

He may not have invented some of what he sells, but he has tested enough of them to trust what he sells as good technology....

My point would be, listen to Chris.

rich

Well, what Chris has done may be nice, accurate, and works on his car. I too have worked with instrumented 914 cars, head and oil temperatures, and wide band mixture gauges. Spark Plug color was also checked for different test conditions.

We have hooked up several MPS to work from inside the cockpit where an assistant can tweek them while on a flat level test run.

After collecting lots of data, what we found to be true on the way these cars are set up.....Lower temperatures occured near where I suggested, a richer mixture. Leaner mixtures, not even as lean as Chris suggested caused over heating in little running time.

These tests performed on two engines, both 96 mm pistons, one a Raby FI cam, one an Elgins FI cam. SS heaters, and Bursch exhaust, stock 2.0 l D-jet. 91 Oct Fuel. 28-30 degree advance. fuel pressure varied 28 to 34 psi. approx 75-85F ambient.

I cant explain the differences in results, but my reported results are not a "mis-conception".

I suggest anyone with a desire to tweek the MPS have some basic temp and O2 gauges and abiltiy read spark plugs to confirm the best adjustment for their engine.

At anyrate take both advices for what they are worth, and try your self. You know now that even engineers with well thought out experiments can get differing results.

It should be clear that I care about these engines and their cooling, and mixture needs. (which is really not uncommon at all within the classic car hobby population)

I'd like to hear about R Towle's own MPS test results, rather than hear someone parrot another experimenters results.

R Towle...Did Chris really develop the Four Channel Exhaust Temp Gauge that can be trusted??? How old is Chris, he must be over 100? Amazing he still races.

200 posts and you are talking trash already.....
You won't make friends that way.

Have I tuned an mps, yup, more than once.
I never parrot, thanx

[Woody]

Ape who are you? What are your credentials? All you do is come in, talk shit, and try to disprove others. Wtf? You have an answer for everything but it seems all your posts are just an attempt at contradiction. It gets old and nobody seems to like you. I am certainly no 914 God but PCNA respects my opinion and takes it without question. Can you please try to explain your obviously superior background to the rest of us so we can try to filter out the bullshit from others?

Your friend Jon.