My First Setback - SUCCESS!, Looks like a bad starter or solenoid Options

[turk22]

Hey, so it seems like my starter may have crapped out. Worst part is I think its my fault. I went to start the car, the car was in gear, and it engaged, the car moved forward a little (an inch), and I immediately let off the key. Since that moment, when trying to start, I get a loud click from the starter (or the relay?), but nothing else.

After looking at all the related threads, here's what I've done to test:


- Tried to jump the starter from the yellow wire terminal on the solenoid to the positive on the starter with a screwdriver, just got a weak spark, and the starter did nothing.

- Tried to jump the starter from the positive to the negative side with a jumper cable (If I understand correctly the starter should spin, but the flywheel not engage?). Nothing happened, not a sound, click, or anything.

From what I've been reading it seems like a bad starter.

I know there is probably more to test/eliminate to make sure this is starter issue. But electrical is not my strong suit. I have purchased a multimeter.

- I believe that I need to test the voltage from the yellow lead of the solenoid while cranking the engine. Question: Just ground the meter to the tranny case?

The car was starting fine, and after that one incident, never again. I bump started it, and drove around the block a few time (hoping the starter was just stuck or something), but no luck, same click, no start.

What I'm hoping to do, is rule out other possibilites and then I guess order the replacement starter if that's what needed.

Turk

[mrbubblehead]

i would suggest that you pull it out and bench test it. its easy enuff to do. my first thought is that the starter pinion gear got hung up on the flywheel. its happened to me once, in a beetle. but if you drove around the block and didnt feel it or hear it, like it was still engaged. than pull it out and test it. you can test it with a set of jumper cables. let us know what you find... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[turk22]

Thanks I'll give that a try, its not possible that it could still be stuck after bump starting it a couple of times is it??

[turk22]

All,

Any advice on what to check prior to pulling the stater, or should I just yank it and see what happens on the bench?

I plan to check / clean the grounds for the battery and trans. Not sure what else.

What do I need to order in the way of relays and/or fuses to have handy for troubleshooting, or quick repairs?

The only thing I'm really nervous about is electrocuting myself, and having my wife find my krispy remains in the garage.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

If it is the starter, what I'm seeing in other threads is the Bocsh SR17X is what I want to get, correct?

thx, Turk

[Drums66]

.....I'm in alinement with what's been said above! I think you jammed
the starter also.

[Jon H.]

Check your grounds first, starting at the battery, with the car in gear it was a huge load on the system.

Jon

[zeezee]

I had just put a new starter in and for a month it worked great.
One morning I get just a loud "clunk".
It took about a dozen real quick/successive twists of the key and "clucks" before it broke free and started up.
It's been a month - no repeats ... keeping fingers crossed.

[SUNAB914]

bang the starter with a hammer first, maybe that will disengage it.

[turk22]

So I want to puke a little... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif)

I replaced the starter with SR17x, and wouldn't you know it...

same problem, just clicks.

I checked the battery. 12.5 volts ....

Now I have to try and chase grounds or something.. which I have no idea what I'm doing...

Any chance someone can walk me thru what to check with a multimeter.

I'd appreciate any hand holding I can get...

thx, Turk

[rnellums]

I would check the transmission ground strap first, from the back end of the transmission to the car chassis just behind the muffler heat shield. It can get greasy pretty easily if the C.V. joints have ever loosened up.

[Cap'n Krusty]

Hey, so it seems like my starter may have crapped out. Worst part is I think its my fault. I went to start the car, the car was in gear, and it engaged, the car moved forward a little (an inch), and I immediately let off the key. Since that moment, when trying to start, I get a loud click from the starter (or the relay?), but nothing else.

After looking at all the related threads, here's what I've done to test:


- Tried to jump the starter from the yellow wire terminal on the solenoid to the positive on the starter with a screwdriver, just got a weak spark, and the starter did nothing.

- Tried to jump the starter from the positive to the negative side with a jumper cable (If I understand correctly the starter should spin, but the flywheel not engage?). Nothing happened, not a sound, click, or anything.

From what I've been reading it seems like a bad starter.

I know there is probably more to test/eliminate to make sure this is starter issue. But electrical is not my strong suit. I have purchased a multimeter.

- I believe that I need to test the voltage from the yellow lead of the solenoid while cranking the engine. Question: Just ground the meter to the tranny case?

The car was starting fine, and after that one incident, never again. I bump started it, and drove around the block a few time (hoping the starter was just stuck or something), but no luck, same click, no start.

What I'm hoping to do, is rule out other possibilites and then I guess order the replacement starter if that's what needed.

Turk

"Tried to jump the starter from the positive to the negative side with a jumper cable (If I understand correctly the starter should spin, but the flywheel not engage?). Nothing happened, not a sound, click, or anything."

WHAT? What negative side" If you're talking about the cable that runs from the solenoid to the body of the starter, that's a hot wire, not a ground.

The Cap'n

[SLITS]

John's correct. If you look at a solenoid there can be 3+ terminals. The two larger terminals are B+ (from the battery) and the other large one feeds the starter motor only (makes it spin when jumped).

The solenoid does two things when activated by putting 12 VDC to the spade terminal. It energizes the piston in the solenoid to pull the bendix gear into the flywheel teeth and closes a set of contacts (used to be a copper washer) to take B+ voltage from the battery to the starter motor.

Sometimes you could take the solenoid apart and flip the washer inside as the contact points would get burned from use and not make a good contact. Hitting it with a hammer made it work most of the time, but it was a bitch crawling under the car every time you had to start it.

[turk22]

Thanks guys,

I'm really trying to understand, and since I replaced the starter last night, I haven't done anything to try and jump it or anything like that.

today when I get home I intend to try these things, please tell me if I'm going to do something stupid, or if there is a better way:

- run a jumper cable from the negative post on the battery to the lower bolt on the starter. And try to start the car. If the starter engages, I have a bad ground somewhere, and I have to find it. Sound correct?

-disconnect the yellow wire from the solenoid, and hook it up the positive on the multimeter, with the black from the multimeter grounded to the tranny case. Turn the key to start, and I should see somewhere in the 11.5 to 12.5 volts range. If not I've got a bad connector or broken wire somewhere from the ignition switch to the starter. Sound Correct?

If those two things don't point me in the right direction its (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[SLITS]

All those things are correct, but you would only have to run the ground cable from the - bat to the engine case.

You can also try jumping the starter from the upper connection on the solenoid to the spade terminal on the solenoid. Starter should then engage and turn the engine. Make sure it's outta gear first.

And you could have 12 VDC at the yellow wire, but not enough amperage to kick the solenoid due to old, corroded wiring.

[JeffBowlsby]

"run a jumper cable from the negative post on the battery to the lower bolt on the starter. And try to start the car. "

The neg battery post goes direct to ground, not to the starter. The lug bolt on the starter solenoid takes the battery+ cable. Don't jumper the battery- to the starter as you describe, just hook things up like they should be. If you suspect your starter, any FLAPS will test it for you.

[turk22]

"run a jumper cable from the negative post on the battery to the lower bolt on the starter. And try to start the car. "

The neg battery post goes direct to ground, not to the starter. The lug bolt on the starter solenoid takes the battery+ cable. Don't jumper the battery- to the starter as you describe, just hook things up like they should be. If you suspect your starter, any FLAPS will test it for you.

thanks Jeff, I was reading in other threads that if you suspect you have a bad ground, to verify that, you would ground directly to the starter bolt (basically bypassing all the other potential grounds) and see if it engages. If it does, then you are pretty sure you have a bad ground, and then you have to find and fix it.

I just purchased a refurb Bosch SR17x starter, so I'm hoping its not the starter. I guess check number three would be to remove the starter and the battery, bring it to AutoZone, and have them test both...

Turk

[Cap'n Krusty]

"run a jumper cable from the negative post on the battery to the lower bolt on the starter. And try to start the car. "

The neg battery post goes direct to ground, not to the starter. The lug bolt on the starter solenoid takes the battery+ cable. Don't jumper the battery- to the starter as you describe, just hook things up like they should be. If you suspect your starter, any FLAPS will test it for you.

thanks Jeff, I was reading in other threads that if you suspect you have a bad ground, to verify that, you would ground directly to the starter bolt (basically bypassing all the other potential grounds) and see if it engages. If it does, then you are pretty sure you have a bad ground, and then you have to find and fix it.

I just purchased a refurb Bosch SR17x starter, so I'm hoping its not the starter. I guess check number three would be to remove the starter and the battery, bring it to AutoZone, and have them test both...

Turk

The nice folks at most FLAPS, including Autozone, aren't all that good at testing stuff, especially since their main goal is to sell you parts ................

The Cap'n

[turk22]

I would check the transmission ground strap first, from the back end of the transmission to the car chassis just behind the muffler heat shield. It can get greasy pretty easily if the C.V. joints have ever loosened up.

Thanks, I'll check that as well. I'm guessing I should unbolt and clean both ends and re-connect?

I'm wondering if the fact that this problem began when I tried the start the car with it in gear might mean I'm overlooking something simple. Are there any fuses to consider (I checked the two on the main relay board, one white, one blue, both are okay).

thx, Turk

[turk22]

Well not much success today:

I put the battery on a charger last night, it was reading 12.7 across the poles when I got home from work.

Today, I tried running a jumper cable from the negative post on the battery to the starter "mounting bolt" (Jeff, I think that was where I wasn't being clear, not the solenoid bolt, but the bolt that mounts the starter to the engine). Tried to start with the same annoying click, even with this "direct ground".

I was able to check the voltage at the positive bolt on the back of the solenoid, and it was also 12.6 volts.

I removed the battery completly, and the cable that connects the battery to the chassis of the car, and cleaned all the contacts and battery posts. I also removed the tranny ground from the bottom of the trunk, and cleaned that up...but I could not for the life of me remove the tranny strap from the tranny, just could not contort myself to even get a wrench on the bolt.

I attached jumper cables to my daily driver, and tried to start the car, with that cars additonal power, same annoying click.

I was not able to check the voltage at the yellow wire (detached from the solenoid), I need someone else to help with turning key.

I'm kinda depressed now, because I'm really not sure what else I need to check. I have to bump start the car to go to the BMV tomorrow to get the VIN inspection done. I need it to get the Title transferred.

any suggestions welcome, I'm at a loss...

Turk

[rnellums]

If I wasn't in St. Louis right now I would swing by tomorrow and see if I could help you figure it out.

You have swapped starters, so probably not that right? this means it must be electrical related.

There are only three wires that go to the Starter,

1 - black heavy gauge to battery positive
1 - red heavy gauge to ignition system and then ground
1 - yellow wire to ignition system (I am assuming this operates the solenoid - don't have Haynes in front of me)

The starter pole reading 12 volts means the cable from the battery is good

if you can measure resistance, disconnect the battery, and measure from the starter pole(was hooked direct to battery) to the chassis(ground) with the key off it should be infinite resistance, if you can have someone turn the key to the start position, it should drop to zero. (I think). Ifd it does, that part of the circuit is golden.

last, check that the yellow wire is getting voltage when it should.

** I could be totally wrong on just about all of this. When I get back to Lafayette Sunday I can measure resistances and voltages on my 74 if it would help.

-Ross

Well not much success today:

I put the battery on a charger last night, it was reading 12.7 across the poles when I got home from work.

Today, I tried running a jumper cable from the negative post on the battery to the starter "mounting bolt" (Jeff, I think that was where I wasn't being clear, not the solenoid bolt, but the bolt that mounts the starter to the engine). Tried to start with the same annoying click, even with this "direct ground".

I was able to check the voltage at the positive bolt on the back of the solenoid, and it was also 12.6 volts.

I removed the battery completly, and the cable that connects the battery to the chassis of the car, and cleaned all the contacts and battery posts. I also removed the tranny ground from the bottom of the trunk, and cleaned that up...but I could not for the life of me remove the tranny strap from the tranny, just could not contort myself to even get a wrench on the bolt.

I attached jumper cables to my daily driver, and tried to start the car, with that cars additonal power, same annoying click.

I was not able to check the voltage at the yellow wire (detached from the solenoid), I need someone else to help with turning key.

I'm kinda depressed now, because I'm really not sure what else I need to check. I have to bump start the car to go to the BMV tomorrow to get the VIN inspection done. I need it to get the Title transferred.

any suggestions welcome, I'm at a loss...

Turk