OT - NPC - Any HVAC guys on the board?, Is this for real? Options

[Pnambic]

My parents had their furnace inspected a couple days ago just like they do before every winter and the guy pointed out a really small crack in the heating element. This furnace is only 5 years old, a Bryant 373LAV. Technically, the part is covered under warranty, but the guy wants $925 for shipping and labor!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) Is this for real? Where is it shipping it from, Tatooine?

Years ago, I worked for an in-ground pool company and did installation and repair work on filters, pumps and heaters. I'm pretty sure that it never took me more than an hour at the absolute most to switch out a heating element and that's if I had to bend myself into unnatural positions in order to get to it due to people trying to keep their pool equipment hidden from view behind fences and landscaping and such.

Anyone here have any experience in this kinda stuff? Would changing out the heating element in a furnace be significantly more difficult than doing it in a pool's water heater? Anyone have a source for the heating element that might be more reasonable?

Hell, could I just JBWeld the crack? (I wonder what the upper temp limit is for JB... I wonder what temp it would have to withstand?(IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif))

[SLITS]

Braise it if anything - it would be too hot for JB.

The crack could be a result of flue gasses and moisture creating an acidic condition, thinning the metal and then cracking due to expansion/contraction during heating.

I can't answer the question about difficulty in changing the heat exchanger in a forced air unit.

Maybe, investigation of a new unit is in order.

[Bleyseng]

without looking it up, I take it its a gas furnace ? The heat exchange is cracked? You propbably could change it yourself but the wholesale cost of a new furnace is about the same. Bryant are kind like Kia cars and not the best IMHO, but the exchangers should be under warranty so check.

Geoff

[efrenv]

The manufacturer brochure says 20 years warranty on the heat exchanger. If you have the receipt, call the manufacturer and request for a replacement part. Ask the contractor to replace the part (labor cost only).

$925 could be parts, labor and shipping.

See brochure

http://www.aairco.com/bryant/Products/pdfs...3KAV-373LAV.PDF

[SpecialK]

If the heat exchanger is cracked, and the HVAC tech/company isn't trying to screw your parents by playing on their fears of CO poisening for the "labor" costs, then something needs to be done fairly soon. Did the HVAC company "Tag" the furnace, and lock-out the gas shut-off valve (the one on/near the furnace)?

I think it would be worthwhile to get a second opinion from a different HVAC service company to see if it truly is cracked......but don't tell the next company about the first guy finding a crack in the H/E, see if it's detected by his equipment. If they get the same results from their test (bad H/E), then it's safe to assume that the first guy wasn't jackin' you around (except for the price of replacing the H/E).

Normally H/E's hold up pretty well unless there was a condensation leaking down onto it from the A/C evap. coil ("A" coil). Within 5 years is VERY unusual for H/E problems, unless there was a flaw from the factory.

Depending on what type of combustion set up it has (inside or outside combustion air), I have an "Old timers" trick shown to me by my Grandfather on how to check for cracks in a heat exchanger. I actually found a crack in an oil furnace H/E that my $250 CO sniffer missed using this method, never trusted my "sniffer" after that.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

PM me at your own risk (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[Bleyseng]

I have seen cracking and rusting out problems only on the 90% gas furnaces due to improper condensate line installs. An 80% gas furnace shouldn't have this problem so if its cracked they should replace it. Yup, get another opinion,

Geoff

[Pnambic]

Apparently the guy showed the crack to my dad, so its plainly visible.

In the PDF that Efren posted, it says Bryant has a freaking manufacturing plant in Indianapolis. THAT'S WHERE WE FREAKING LIVE! What the heck are they charging for shipping? I'll pick it up on my way home from work for crying out loud. Does $900 for labor sound right? I picked the wrong career... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

I think we need to lean on Bryant a little harder and get a second opinion. Wish me luck... <_<

Thanks for the help guys

[GWN7]

$900 for labor sounds a bit high...about $850 too high. Figure you can buy a new furnace for a couple $100 more and that would include a new case, blower, ect.. The guy had to take the heat exchanger out to inspect it. Did he charge $900 to do that? All that is involved is putting a new one in instead of the broken one back in.

[SpecialK]

Well, if the crack is plainly visible, and not just some crude on the H/E, then by all means have it changed (or the furnace replaced with a better brand, i.e. - Carrier, Trane, Lennox, York)

It's actually easier on the service guy to put in a new furnace than to replace the H/E on an existing one. I had a Rheem installation (notice it's not listed as a "better" brand) in Denver that had a bad secondary H/E from the factory. HUGE PITA, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) took twice as long as the original installation. You have to completely disassemble the furnace, sheetmetal and all, and the replacement H/E didn't come with the replacement gaskets that "will" get F'ed up in the process of disassembly.

Make sure that if he does end up replacing the H/E, that they perform another CO test to ensure that all of the gaskets sealed. And frankly, a CO detector in the house isn't a bad idea after such a job......better safe than sorry!

The shipping should be less than $100, they're really not all that heavy or bulky. Hell, I had a V6 long block shipped to my driveway in Missouri from Conn. and it only cost $110. Your parents are definitely getting screwed on something here....but to what degree it's hard to say.

Kevin

[Bleyseng]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[carambola]

lets break this thing down. how long does this part take to replace and what does the company charge per hour? the shipping, if necessary - the part could be in stock at a supply house, is what it is. i can't see this job taking all day

[SpecialK]

lets break this thing down. how long does this part take to replace and what does the company charge per hour? the shipping, if necessary - the part could be in stock at a supply house, is what it is. i can't see this job taking all day

It entails complete disassembly of the furnace, and I mean the sheetmetal and everything. Since HVAC servicemen/women don't normally run into a H/E replacement (they just don't go bad that often, and then they normally just replace the whole furnace as in the case of an older furnace). There are no instructions, per se, that would help the serviceperson get the job done any quicker, so they make the mistake of trying to take apart the least amount of stuff to get the H/E out...........big mistake! You have to completely disconnect the furnace from the ductwork, lay it down and strip it like a car in East St. Louis, blower and everything. Bigger PITA than you'd think getting to all of the screws install at the factory.........4 - 6 hour job possibly, longer if the serviceperson tries to take short-cuts.

[carambola]

so what they are looking at is a 4- 6 hour job, maybe 8 if the tech is shy of work, at an average of 75 per hour. make it 125 if he brings a helper. plus the price of materials and the shipping thing ( which i never heard of ).
to me that looks like a labor only of 300 to 1000.

[SpecialK]

Yeah, there's little doubt that they're getting screwed.

I wonder if there was some kind of pro rating of the heat exchanger from Bryant. Gotta read the fine print on the warranty to find out for sure.

[guywan914]

Being an Hvac contractor in the northeast it sounds like it is about twice as much as it should be. we just changed out a warrantee oil furnace heat exchanger in 2 hrs time with an $82.00 shipping bill. [heat exchanger came from canada, and they sent the wrong one the first time]
If the Hvac company found the crack, did not repair itor patch ti, did not shut down and tag the furnace, you may have some legal issues here. I'll bet they'd do it for free rather than go to court

[guywan914]

sorry for the backward spelling , I get really upset when HVAC COMPANIES TRY TO RIP PEOPLE OFF. one reason the heat exchanger may have gone in the first place is running the furnace for extended peroids with a plugged filter or the return duct size is not large enough for the air that should be brought across the heat exchanger. If it is propane did anyone ever set the manifold pressure up at the installation. Is this a Bryant Dealer you are using? If not it wouldn"t hurt to find one to get a second opinion

[Pnambic]

Well, got an update.

Called up the HVAC company and asked to speak with management. Explained my concern over the estimated cost. He came out and looked and agreed that the estimate was probably too high. Scheduled a different technician to come out and do it.

The guy did it today. Took 1 hr 45 min for one guy.

Grand total?

$461

I just hope the work isn't shoddy for my stepping on too many toes... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)


Thanks guys! I have no doubt we would have been screwed without your advice!

914-guys rock!