Modern Programable T4 ITB Injection, Megasquirt and Bolt-On Trigger Wheel Options

[McMark]

With sensors from GERMAN cars so they look right.

You know Bosch is the AC Delco of Germany, right?

Bold added for emphasis. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[McMark]

You'll have to ask him about that. MAP is built in to the boards, I know, but Megasquirt can be configured any way you want it, using any kind of MAF sensor you want to choose. Try www.msefi.com and all your questions will be answered... plus about a million you never thought to ask.

Microsquirt doesn't have a built in MAP sensor. But I'd wager on an external MAP sensor. It's the easiest to set up. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a TPS involved, but usually it's pretty much ignored unless you have a wild cam at idle.

[MarioVelotta]

Hey guys, guess I'll chime in (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I've only recently played with the Microquirts. My goto is an MS2 V3. The Microsquirt is a great little ECU but it is limited in features for anything over stock. For example, you cannot run a boost control and an idle valve. And if you want Barometric correction you can't do launch control.

Here is my 1600dp beetle with a Microsquirt installed. I dynoed it not to long ago and got 60hp and 87ft/lbs out of it.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net-15980-1370663068.1.jpg)

To answer some questions on the T4 trigger wheel, here are a couple pics of it mounted up.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net-15980-1370663068.2.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net-15980-1370663068.3.jpg)

And thanks for requesting my presence!

[DBCooper]

With sensors from GERMAN cars so they look right.

You know Bosch is the AC Delco of Germany, right?

Bold added for emphasis. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But when you're converting to ITB's and using aftermarket EFI is "look right" really significant any more?

Microsquirt doesn't have a built in MAP sensor.

True... but I was talking about Megasquirt, not Microsquirt. I posted the photo of the Microsquirt just because I think they're cool, but the system most people use is the Megasquirt, much more capable.

[DBCooper]

Thanks for dropping by, Mario. Parts are getting harder to find, harnesses are getting old and unreliable, so there's always been interest in more modern alternatives to the stock 914 fuel injection. It's not much different than the bus T4's in that respect, so could you give us an indication of the cost of a plug-and-play system using as many of the 914 components as possible, and what that would include? And for the performance people that same or a similar setup using those CB throttle bodies? Everyone has a different situation and different wants and needs, so I know it varies a lot, but just a base system, whatever configuration you'd suggest so we could have a ballpark idea of cost. Thanks again.

[RonW]

Not that I have many posts on here but thought I'd post up. I've had a LOT of experience working with Mario and he is a stand up guy and puts out a great product. He helped me with my prior motors EFI set up with:
MS3, MS3x, dual Jenvey's, LC-1 running sequential fuel and sequential COP on my 2270. datalogging and helping me fine tune. even track side, id datalog, email and he'd send me back updated files before the next session. im currently in the processes of helping a buddy do an MS3+kit mario put together for a 74 RSR clone 3.2L six. If my stock STi ecu didnt run so damn well, i'd have another one of his kits on this too.

[aircooledtechguy]

Mario; Thanks for coming over to the dark side.

I have seen that 36-1 wheel, bracket and sensor (btw, its a hall sensor, so you don't have all the noise/interference/shielding issues that the VR sensors have). It's a really nice product that fits and works like it should. Does it really matter what a sensor looks like?? Where its located, you couldn't see it unless you had your car on a lift w/ the oil filter removed. . . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Thankfully, Mario is my local MS guy who I will be working with for my up-coming engine upgrade in my shop car. He, like many others on here, is a member vendor that is a pleasure to work with and is furthering the community with innovation.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[MarioVelotta]

Microsquirt doesn't have a built in MAP sensor. But I'd wager on an external MAP sensor. It's the easiest to set up. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a TPS involved, but usually it's pretty much ignored unless you have a wild cam at idle.

That is also correct, the Microsquirt does not carry an internal MAP like it's big brother. Another reason the MS2 V3 is my goto.

I disagree on the external MAP being easier to set up. It adds wiring, and if you want barometric correction for spirited mountain driving you need 2. Adding more wiring. On the V3 board you just add the MapDaddy sensor and call it a day. Using the same singe vacuum line that is going to the ECU.

TPS isn't necessary with Speed Density fueling using a map sensor, but it sure helps with acceleration enrichment. I've always had a hard time getting reliable acceleration enrichment's just using engine vacuum variation. Not that is can't be done...

TPS data in a log is invaluable IMHO, it really tells you what the driver is trying to accomplish during the drive.

[McMark]

Its easiest to set up meaning MAP vs. AlphaN vs. MAF.

[nathansnathan]

To answer some questions on the T4 trigger wheel, here are a couple pics of it mounted up.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net-15980-1370663068.2.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net-15980-1370663068.3.jpg)

Ah, cool. I pictured the sensor pointing the other way with the bracket mounted to the fan housing. It is nice that you don't have to irreversibly modify any stock parts to mount it. Nice design there, making it span to the upper bolt, I know how tight space is in there.

[jd74914]

Its easiest to set up meaning MAP vs. AlphaN vs. MAF.

They all have their own places.

On some high-revving quick transient motors (ie: Japanese sport bike motors), with ITBs, Alpha-N (TPS) can sometime be easier to set up. In fact, I know that the OEM Suzuki GSX-R ECMs are Alpha-N-based with extensive corrections. Note that these are nothing similar to Megasquirts or most non-F1-grade aftermarket ECUs; they have 3-4 fuel and spark maps for each gear!

People sometimes like Alpha-N better for intake restricted motors (think Nascar, FSAE, etc.). Obviously, neither are really akin to Type IVs. I think that Alpha-N is a bit finicky to tune unless you have really, really good temperature and pressure corrections. They are also super sensitive to changes in throttle position sensor slippage (Don't ever use a plastic bolt to hold on your TPS!). Personally, I've never been a big fan, but they do have their place.

Speed density (MAP) systems are pretty robust. I've had good luck with them on some fast motors as well with good TPS-based enrichment functions. They are often pretty easy to tune, though again like Alpha-N are sensitive to changes in engine specification.

MAF setups are most robust to system design changes like differing intake manifolds or headers, assuming the MAF sensor doesn't break (they can be a bit fragile), and their isn't too much intake reversion (often this can be cancelled with a good Helmholtz resonator). I've never tuned one since my experience has only been with small motors (sub-1000cc so too small for commercially available MAFs), but they should be the easiest to tune. Note that you still need to do extensive tweaking on the acceleration enrichment to prevent stuff like tip-in bucking. This is because there can be something of a "long" time constant for intakes meaning that your sensor won't see manifold changes super fast. Once again, this is where a good TPS-based enrichment helps.

------------
On another note, Mario's stuff looks awesome and is quite well priced. We actually talked last week about the trigger wheel setup. He responds super fast to questions and seems like a really nice guy.

For what it's worth, I'm putting an MS3 on my car and have access to lots of machines so I can pretty much make anything, and I'm planning on buying Mario's setup when it comes to market in a few weeks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-----------
OK, enough writing from me for now. I've got to get back to work rebuilding a Stuska dyno. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[MarioVelotta]

So here is a kit I just got done with that you guys would be interested in. It's going on a T4 2.0L in a bus. He wanted dual ITB's with crank trigger and direct coil control i.e. no EDIS module! Who wants an extra box inline with you these days to go bad, add to the wiring and give up spark cut? I don't. I did use them for a few years but have gotten over it. And those proprietary plug wires are prone to breakage. HEI ends are the way to go. They are available anywhere.

The only think not pictured is linkage. He has a set of sync links he is going to use.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net-15980-1371664921.1.jpg)

[monkeyboy]

What does a kit like that cost? I'd like to set something up like that at the end of this summer.

[MarioVelotta]

My ITB kits start at $2500 without ignition control, but it includes wire harness, relay board, fuel system and wideband 02 sensor. Ignition adds around $500 for coil, wires, crank trigger and sensor, plus ECU mods. This is all bases on a MS2 V3 board so you are not feature limited. You can use that as a guide on which way you want to go, then we can tailor the package any way you need. I build everything to order so I have no problems substituting parts, adding or subtracting.

Feel free to PM or email anytime if you have questions

Mario@thedubshop.net

[monkeyboy]

Thanks.

[rwilner]

Check out the microsquirt install in my signature. IMO, mcmark makes about the closest you can hope to get for a plug and play type 4 ms system.

[MarioVelotta]

Cool!

I do a Microsquirt based plug and play version for the Type 1. For Type 4 a few lengths would need to be changed. That is something I can work out with Aircooledtechguy over at his shop.

Then again, you said it yourself. McMarc uses his kits on his own installs and doesn't cater to the DIY guys, I do. It's just another options for the guys that are not local to him and able to just drop their car off.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net-15980-1371694647.1.jpg)

[McMark]

McMarc uses his kits on his own installs and doesn't cater to the DIY guys

Not sure where you got that. I've sold three to DIY guys and installed one (plus my own). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[MarioVelotta]

McMarc uses his kits on his own installs and doesn't cater to the DIY guys

Not sure where you got that. I've sold three to DIY guys and installed one (plus my own). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That's just what I've heard, and that's what I took from this

The system I'm installing was engineered and supplied 100% by McMark. My understanding is that he usually provides these systems for motors that he builds, but I talked him into providing one for me

[monkeyboy]

McMark, do you have an available kit for ITB's? My car didn't come with any of the stock intake parts, and I'm not real eager to source them.