SIX mount question, Patrick Moly Bar Options

[IronHillRestorations]

I'll also say, that although some dislike Jim Patrick (you'd think he killed MikeZ's dog or something), he has been nothing but attentive, responsive and respectful to my suggestions and concerns. I have to judge individuals based on my personal experience.

Jim seems like a nice enough guy, and I don't really have anything against him. However he's has put some products out there that needed more development.
The engine bars are one of them.

I purchased a rear caliper spacer kit that he used to sell, and the fasteners were wrong, and the seals that he supplied with the kit weren't compatible with brake fluid. The seals lasted about a year and a half, and then went bad and started leaking brake fluid.

I did purchase one of his engine bars, and it's still working. He didn't tell me that you had to modify factory heat exchangers to work with it though. I would talk with him before doing any modifications to that bar. IIRC it is stress relieved and heat treated.

The thing I didn't like about the bar is that you can feel the engine bounce when you go over bumps. I'm sure the chrome moly is strong enough, but like an airframe it flexes. I was totally unaware of any failures when I had my car with a 3.0 and his bar, but I can't say I didn't have any concerns.

[siverson]

Bouncy bar eventually breaks:

(IMG:http://www.streamload.com/steve/914/broken_Patrick_bar/640x480/image001.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.streamload.com/steve/914/broken_Patrick_bar/640x480/image002.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.streamload.com/steve/914/broken_Patrick_bar/640x480/image003.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.streamload.com/steve/914/broken_Patrick_bar/640x480/image004.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.streamload.com/steve/914/broken_Patrick_bar/640x480/image005.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.streamload.com/steve/914/broken_Patrick_bar/640x480/image006.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.streamload.com/steve/914/broken_Patrick_bar/640x480/image007.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.streamload.com/steve/914/broken_Patrick_bar/640x480/image008.jpg)

-Steve

[Trekkor]

Those pics look like bad welds. Maybe incompatable wire?
I wonder if that is the problem. I guess I'll find out for myself.

The "feel" *should* be the same, as it attatches to the same mounts as the FOUR. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

KT

[Trekkor]

Wow (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

Those pics are more than welds. The mount plate is tearing away from the bar.

Steve, were you using solid mounts? How old is the bar?

I'm going to go look at my bar and see if it is built differently

KT

[John]

We made our mount that welds to the lower firewall. We had heard that all of the 6 mount bars that use the 4-cyl mount locations will flex as they cantilever to support the front of the 6-cyl motor.

The next mount I'm going to fabricate will resemble one that someone makes or use to make. This style of mount uses a cut down 911 engine mount bar and mounts to the firewall in 2 spots instead of the single point (like original 6's and my original mount). I forget who makes that mount, but when it first came out it was virtually identical to what I had thought up after creating the one we use now with our 3.2.

[siverson]

> Those pics look like bad welds. Maybe incompatable wire?

It didn't crack on the weld. The metal just weakened and "tore" apart.

> were you using solid mounts?

No, 911 sport mounts (rubber).

> The "feel" *should* be the same, as it attatches to the same mounts as the FOUR.

Except the four bar is thick steel, much stronger, and holding a much lighter engine (I used this on a 3.6).

This broke ~5 years ago or so. The bar was only about a year old when it broke (< 10,000 miles). At the time, despite having a "new design" of the bar and several other failures, Jim told me it was probably installation error or misuse.

-Steve

[Series9]

Those pictures definitely give me food for thought.

Like I said, I'll be watching it. Worst case, I get to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif)

[Trekkor]

Thanks again for the pics. that's the first time I've seen the damage. And up close. Good.


My bar is the same as far as I can see.
I wonder if some welding can be done to beef up the bar at the points of stress. Perhaps a larger diameter half pipe over the weak spots.

I hope mine doesn't fail. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

So PMS won't stand behind their product?

KT

[maf914]

We had heard that all of the 6 mount bars that use the 4-cyl mount locations will flex as they cantilever to support the front of the 6-cyl motor.

I don't have a six, but I find this topic interesting. The fact that the bar is cantilevered forward will add a lot of twisting forces to the bar and hangers. Imagine the forces not only at the broken mounting brackets but at the hanger bolts during acceleration and hard shifting. Like Steve said the stock bar for the T4 is strong and heavy, but it is also carries the load vertically, without torsion. Make sure you use high grade hardware with that bar.

[Root_Werks]

So far, I have not had that problem with the moly mounts. That picture sort of freaks me out though! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) Is that rust I see? So is that an early steal bar? Looking at that picture, it looks like it didn't have much to do with the torque of the engine so much is it bouncing around. None of this will make me pull out my moly mount though. Until I see something happen to any of the bars I have used, I will continue to use them. I don't have any issues with PM, he has done well with what I have ordered from him so far.

Zois, did you have the moly mount in your old white 3.0? What's your beef with Patrick? Just wondering so I don't get burned myself someday. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Kerrys914]

me see no photo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Root_Werks]

me see no photo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

You don't want to Kerry, it is not a pretty sight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Actually, this brings to light I want to start devolping my bulkhead mount again. I have a jig for making the cross bar, and can do those, but seems like the bulk head system just works better. I know a few people out there already make them, but dang, $400 for a mount seems a little steap. There has to be a way to make them for less. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif)

[brant]

We made our mount that welds to the lower firewall. We had heard that all of the 6 mount bars that use the 4-cyl mount locations will flex as they cantilever to support the front of the 6-cyl motor.

The next mount I'm going to fabricate will resemble one that someone makes or use to make. This style of mount uses a cut down 911 engine mount bar and mounts to the firewall in 2 spots instead of the single point (like original 6's and my original mount). I forget who makes that mount, but when it first came out it was virtually identical to what I had thought up after creating the one we use now with our 3.2.

Johnman,

do you mean this mount..
its the "other" patrick mount..

I've heard very good things about it on track cars.
plus it allows the motor to swivel down, for valve adjustments or install/removal.

brant

[Joe Bob]

All of my /6 mounts are bulkhead ones and have been from Rich Johnson.

I have torn down a number of /6 projects that were hack jobs back when I was actively parting out unfinished project cars.....at the beginning of the 914 internet family....I was finding unfinished projects and picking them up for $.05 on the dollar. I even snagged a running converted sixer out from under Bradholio's nose in his backyard once....towed it home and sold some, kept some.

It was fun while it lasted. Too many other people are doing it now and the competition makes it unlikely to make any money AND get free parts like I used to... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Anyways...the quick six mounts and the Patrick mounts have issues....flex, low clearance and lack of accountability from the seller/makers are the big part of my bitchiness....the fact that Steve got hosed bugs me as well.

I WILL not sell/give away a used mount unless it is a bulkhead one....I toss all of them in the shitcan.

As to my animosity towards Jim Patrick.....it involved a phone call back when I was a newbie and doing my first conversion. He treated me shabbily and I heard a few things over the years....never met him, don't wanna meet him, and don't plan on burying the hatchet anywhere except somewhere that hurts....there are too many nice guys on the net and in my backyard to have to deal with an asshole.

I know "I" can be crusty....but I will give the shirt of my back to help someone and stand behind every one of my deals to make to it right....I have taken back parts, paid shipping both ways and done total refunds. I have given away stuff that to me is junk but can be a rare find to someone else.....but if "I" think something is worthwhile...I can be a hardnosed trader as well.

I like hanging with the 914 crowd as they are generally a little looser in attitude than the 911 crowd....the 356 weenies make my butt puckeer. I only play with them to piss them off....

Well...that's enuff about that...

[Kerrys914]

This is an interesting topic..

If the tranny mounts and engine mounts are in good shape would one expect to have that much movment to cause a failure?

Isn't the weight of the engine and tranny also carried by the tranny mounts?

Maybe I need to take a look at the install again but I just don't see that much movement in the system to cause failure with all the mounts in good shape.

[john rogers]

I used the new Patrick mount when we put the six in my race car and it has worked great. When I talked to Jim he said not to use the original mount as it was a design to try to make the six conversion an easy bolt in and it was just too flexible and would fail.

[brant]

John Rogers...

yep there are multiple colorado race cars running the patrick bulkhead with very good results.

brant

[Joe Bob]

I used the new Patrick mount when we put the six in my race car and it has worked great. When I talked to Jim he said not to use the original mount as it was a design to try to make the six conversion an easy bolt in and it was just too flexible and would fail.

Then as a reputable business person he should admit it and buy them back or give credit towards a new one.

[Root_Werks]

I used the new Patrick mount when we put the six in my race car and it has worked great. When I talked to Jim he said not to use the original mount as it was a design to try to make the six conversion an easy bolt in and it was just too flexible and would fail.

Then as a reputable business person he should admit it and buy them back or give credit towards a new one.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[Randal]

That bar looks like something TC Design would make and I must say that Tony absolutely stands behind his work.

You should call him Trekkor. In any event he'll have opinions that would be valuable as to how best to proceed.