Rim width and sticky tire questions for a stock 914 Options

[stephestrad]

Over the past few months I've dipped my toe in the autocross waters...and I love it! I ran to my mechanic and was buzzing with visions of anti-sway bars, adjustable shocks, turbo tie rods, etc. After calming me down a bit, he suggested I start with the following steps:

1) Learn to be a better driver.
2) Get some sticky tires.
3) Repeat step 1.

I'm humbly working on step 1. It feels like I'm virtually relearning to drive, but man, it's so much fun! My questions for the forum are directed at step 2.

I have a stock '74 2.0 (without flares).
- If I were to get a second set of dedicated race rims with slick/sticky tires, should I go wider than stock? If not, what would be a good type & size tire?
- If a wider rim is better, how wide can I go? And again here, what type & size tire would work?
- Are sticky race tires sized the same as street tires? I looked through the Hoosier website and was completely lost in the choices.

These will primarily be for autocross, though my mechanic has also suggested I look into some NASA track events.

[Woody]

I would stay away from Hoosiers until you have at least a year of experience autocrossing. Maybe buy some Dunlop direzzas, BFG rivals, Hankook RS3 or something a bit more forgiving before you take that plunge. Hoosiers are not a good tire to learn on as they can be less forgiving, flat spot easy, and require the car to be set up for them. Maybe throw on a decent adjustable 19mm front swaybar, new shocks, and make sure all your suspension bushings are in order. Also realign the car. Get as much camber as you can in the front and go -.5 degrees more in the rear than the front. Start with that and learn the car and the sport and then you can start down the slippery slope. Oh yeah, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png)

[brant]

My recommendation would be for a dedicated track tire. Perhaps the new Toyo or BFg get a 195/50 and buy a used set of stock alloy rims to put them on. Keep your street tires for the rest of the time.

[Randal]

My recommendation would be for a dedicated track tire. Perhaps the new Toyo or BFg get a 195/50 and buy a used set of stock alloy rims to put them on. Keep your street tires for the rest of the time.

I agree, that's exactly the way I did it.

Check the local autox rules, they will usually have a maximum rim size specified.

Also agree with Woody's suggestions about making sure the car is in order.

And don't forget to ride with instructors every time you can.

And after a few autox's do a local track day with PCA. The instruction you'll receive there will be invaluable. Here in Northern California PCA sets up classes you have to attend before going out to the track...again invaluable stuff. And the track work will teach you a bunch about about higher speed cornering.

FYI your mechanic was right on!

And even though your car will have to be inspected before running on the track, it's a good idea to install an oil overflow system and make sure the can is big enough.

[scott_in_nh]

I just finished my 1st year of AX and had a great time.
I also have a 74 2.0 with 195/65 Goodyear Eagle GT’s (not a sticky tire).
If your car does not have factory sway bars you will really want at least the front.
An adjustable 19mm as suggested is probably your best bet.
If you have a rear bar you will need to disconnect it for AX as it will cause you to unweight the inside rear tire enough to spin it coming off of a corner.

With just the front bar and the typical 100lb. rear springs I found the car to have too much body roll, lots of understeer and unresponsive to tire pressure adjustments – it was very frustrating.
When I changed to 165 lb. rear springs it helped all of the above dramatically!
The more common 140 lb. springs would probably work well too.

Any of the sticky street tires suggested would be great and is my next step too.
Most here have strongly suggested I go with 205/50’s instead of 195’s.
I originally was going to use them just for AX, but after seeing a friends new BMW come from the factory with the Direzza’s I will keep the tires on the car all summer and put the Goodyears on my steel rims for winter (I don’t drive in the snow, but cold weather does not stop me).

Some might tell you to do nothing to the car, but I found the stock car to be frustrating to the point of taking away some of the fun YMMV.

[dlestep]

Some might tell you to do nothing to the car, but I found the stock car to be frustrating to the point of taking away some of the fun
That's true to some, but not everyone.
Of course, the stock car will roll, but because of your momentum compressing
into the corner.
~
If you are just starting out in AX, you need to learn to drive your car in close
quarters and how everything reacts.
Speed through an AX is setting up multiple corners, not just
one.
You have to learn to walk [your car] before you run [your car] through it.
Once you have the cadence, you will be able to shave time.
I would venture to say it will take 4 or 5 events, before you really begin to
relax and "feel" the course.
Then later, you will be able to walk the course in the morning, discovering
the compression and expansion points, and where to reduce braking.
Remember, AX breaks parts. It will expose every weak spot.
In the beginning, 95% of the problem is the driver.
Revs Up !
It's fun, no matter what happens.
p.s. stay off 1st gear...you'll be waisting time. Throttle up in second after you launch.

[SirAndy]

My recommendation would be for a dedicated track tire. Perhaps the new Toyo or BFg get a 195/50 and buy a used set of stock alloy rims to put them on. Keep your street tires for the rest of the time.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Sticky tires (like Hoosiers) are usually wider than advertised. I know for a fact that 205 Hoosiers won't fit under stock fenders unless you roll them and pull them a bit.

195 Toyos would be a good start.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[Jetsetsurfshop]

My recommendation would be for a dedicated track tire. Perhaps the new Toyo or BFg get a 195/50 and buy a used set of stock alloy rims to put them on. Keep your street tires for the rest of the time.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Sticky tires (like Hoosiers) are usually wider than advertised. I know for a fact that 205 Hoosiers won't fit under stock fenders unless you roll them and pull them a bit.

195 Toyos would be a good start.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
Had to roll my fenders on my 74 to fit 205/50 Hoosiers. With that said the Hoosiers didn't last long, but man are they fun!!

[stephestrad]

Thanks for all the great responses! I feel exceptionally welcomed to the 914World community! After reading the posts and doing some “interneting,” here are my thoughts:

Rims/Tires
I like Brant's idea of getting an extra set of stock alloy rims. Working with 195/50/15 tires (SirAndy and Jetsetsurfshop, thanks for the 205 heads up), it appears that I can basically go one of two directions: either a more aggressive street tire, like the Dunlop Durezzas Woody suggested, or something more autocross specific, like the Toyo R888 (brant, are these the “new” Toyo you mentioned?). Woody mentioned the Hoosiers aren’t the best learning tire. That makes sense. Would I have the same issue with these Toyos?

Suspension & Learning to drive.
These posts have gotten me thinking. Like scott in nh, I experienced some heavy body roll. That’s one reason I was so keen to work on the suspension. Clearly the car could be stiffer but, as much as I’m drawn to new shocks, springs, and a sway bars (drool), I’m starting to understand the logic behind sticking with my basic set up for at least a short while longer — maybe half of next season or so. That will give me more time to learn how to better handle my car as-is, before deciding on additional upgrades.

To Randal’s points on instructors and track time — yes and yes! I’ve been spending as much time as possible with instructors. I’ll check with my local PCA chapter for some driver training track sessions next year. The NASA schedule looks promising too.

dlestep, thanks for the newbie AX pointers. I like idea of learning to “walk” the car first. I feel like I’m getting mildly better at initial braking, but I’m not to the point of understanding compression and expansion points. I’ve been reading Henry Watts’ book on Solo Racing and really enjoying it. It is at least pointing me in the right direction, and hopefully I can work to remove a little of that 95% driver error!

Here's a pic of my car in action!

[SirAndy]

Toyo R888

Those would be my choice. Get them unshaven, there is no need for you (yet) to run around on shaved tires.
Plus, that way you can also run them on the street if you want to.

As for the body roll, do you have an adjustable front sway bar?
They're also called "anti-roll bar", which i think is a much better name.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Randal]

My recommendation would be for a dedicated track tire. Perhaps the new Toyo or BFg get a 195/50 and buy a used set of stock alloy rims to put them on. Keep your street tires for the rest of the time.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Sticky tires (like Hoosiers) are usually wider than advertised. I know for a fact that 205 Hoosiers won't fit under stock fenders unless you roll them and pull them a bit.

195 Toyos would be a good start.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

Hoosiers 205 are way bigger than stock 205's and Andy is right, they won't fit without the baseball bat treatment.

Also agree on Toyos as a good starting point. Get the Hoosiers after a year of seat time.

[stephestrad]

Toyo R888

As for the body roll, do you have an adjustable front sway bar?
They're also called "anti-roll bar", which i think is a much better name.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't. Also, I have the u-shaped attachments on the transverse control arms, but not the mounts in/through the sheet metal. During our conversation, my mechanic floated the (eventual, post-learning-to-drive) idea of simply bolting on the front end from a 911. He said that would provide an anti-roll bar (and various other benefits) without having to drill holes in my car. Apparently, it's a pretty straightforward 8-bolt job. He mentioned that would probably require rear anti-sway hardware to balance out the car. However, should I ever want to sell the car in it's stock form, I could simply remove the bits and pieces and replace with the original. I guess there are lots of options to mull over.

Btw, hope everyone is having a great Thanksgiving!

[McMark]

A front anti-roll bar is a universally accepted upgrade. I think the through body sway bar is a better setup and saves weight versus the 911 front end. Most anyone who buys the car will appreciate the upgrade, not ding you for it.

[ConeDodger]

A 914 is not even fun to drive on the street without at least the factory front roll bar. Mine came without them and I scrounged around the classified forum until I found both front and rear. Once I had them installed, it was a different car. Probably the most dramatic stock parts you can add to your suspension.

There are some tricks to autocrossing a stock seat 914. Take out the pad in the seat to allow your butt to sink in. This gives you some lateral support and moves you down in the seat. Keep your roof on. This believe it or not gives you some stiffness to the body.
Beyond the sway bar, and maybe some stickier tires, I wouldn't touch it except to bleed the brakes and put some good pads on it. (Porterfield R4S from PMB Performance).
Stickier tires hide some driving sins so seat time with an instructor is very important. PCA encourages even the 25 or so Zone Autocross instructors to ride with each other, get instruction from each other... You never know what you're missing out there until you get a good set of eyes in the car watching.
I find that track days do a lot of good. Things happen pretty slowly out on the road course compared to an autocross course. For @ $130 you get over an hour of seat time. It helps you see the right line. I'd try at least one a year just to get the seat time.
Really great looking car by the way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ww914]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) ..... with everything said and this is coming from a relatively low time auto-crosser, maybe 15 events and a couple of DEs.

I am running a modified 2.0 engine, lots of suspension upgrades and Hoosier A6 205 dedicated track tires. Would I do that all over again? Maybe. If I were you, as suggested, get a lot of seat time. Do check all parts and make sure they are in good working order. By all means, get the rules for your club and see what modifications you can make without bumping you up in class. In otherwords, take it slow and have fun and try to beat your last time before you start worrying about beating others.

[jhadler]

Good comments...

Here's my $0.02 from many years past of autox...

1) Seat time
2) Suspension in good repair (this means making sure bushings and the like are actually intact, many 40 yr old 914's suffer this condition)
3) Seat time
4) A decent pair of shocks (not fancy shmancy multi-way remote reservoir shocks. Just good decent shocks. Koni's, Bilstiens etc.)
5) Seat time
6) A decent front sway bar if you don't already have one (again, doesn't need to be the top shelf unit, but the car will much more responsive to your driving with one)
7) Seat time
8) Seat time
9) Seat time
10) Decent tires, but not super sticky race tires. Stay on street tires for your first season. Learn how the car behaves. Learn how to adjust your inputs to the car. If you don't learn these very vital skills on street tires, you will blow through a thousand dollars in race tires in NO TIME. Race tires will push the outer edge of the envelope way beyond what you are used to. And when you get to that edge, they tend to be very unforgiving of mistakes. Flat spots and rapid wear are very common for people new to race tires. My suggestion, start on street tires for a season (or at least half a season if you are super impatient), then get another set of stock wheels and some used race tires. Used race tires will give you the experience of race rubber at a fraction of the cost. Don't worry, there are lots of ways to get used race tires. I don't recommend Hoosiers until you've got a some good experience with the car first. At about $1000 a set, Hoosiers become an expensive habit... You'll want them to last longer than an event or two.
11) Be prepared to fix things. A lot. Pushing the car to the edge, be it around cones at an autox, or around the track at a DE or time trial, will reveal every weak spot on the car.
12) Seat time

And oh, did I mention seat time?

Lastly, say goodbye to your discretionary income.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

-Josh

[stephestrad]

Once again, thank you all for the wealth of good advice! Clearly, the driving aspect is primary here. I'm not only sold, but really excited about that part. I wish there was some large isolated lot I could use to practice over the winter!

Regarding the car bits and pieces. While wanting my car to be more responsive for autocross and track, I need (and want) this to be drivable on the street. As excited as I initially was with the idea of throwing every tech option possible at this, at heart, I'm more of an ease into it, step-by-step kinda person. After reading the posts, new shocks and a basic front anti-roll bar seem a not overly zealous choice, and in keeping with a stock set-up. They will simply make the car handle better, not turn it into a dedicated race-mobile.

Conveniently, my fresh air blower is needing replacement. As the gas tank needs to be pulled to fix that, I was thinking maybe this would be an ok time to install a basic sway bar and, while it's up there, put on some new shocks/struts. I'll need the latter sometime next year anyways.

So here's a game plan with questions. I'm hoping this won't be overkill for a driver of my limited skill:
- Bilstein Sports all around (with 140lb springs?)
- Front anti-roll bar (Factory? Weltmeister? My mechanic mentioned Elephant racing, but those look fancy and pricy.)
- Used set of alloy rims (Fuchs?)
- Toyo R888

Does this sound like a good newbie autocross/track set-up, while also making for a better car around town?

I've been reading all the posts thoroughly. I'd comment on all, but this would get looong. Just wanted to leave a few quick notes.

Really great looking car by the way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Heh heh, thanks. You too. Silver rocks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

...take it slow and have fun and try to beat your last time before you start worrying about beating others.

Words to live by. I'm fully ok being the slowest out there. I'm still very happy just to be learning more each time out about how the car handles.

And oh, did I mention seat time?
Lastly, say goodbye to your discretionary income.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I hear you on the seat time...but whistling and pretending like I didn't read the last bit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif)

[Woody]

So here's a game plan with questions. I'm hoping this won't be overkill for a driver of my limited skill:
- Bilstein Sports all around (with 140lb springs?)
- Front anti-roll bar (Factory? Weltmeister? My mechanic mentioned Elephant racing, but those look fancy and pricy.)
- Used set of alloy rims (Fuchs?)
- Toyo R888

That sounds like a great starting point. Try to stay away from aftermarket replica fuchs wheels. They have been known to fail with sticky tires.

[jhadler]

Don't try to skip too much on the sway bar. If you're going through the whole process of pulling the tank, and installing the brackets and plates for a through-body sway bar. Get a good one while you're in there.

Get factory Fuchs, the aftermarket ones sometime have slightly different offsets.

The springs are a sticky issue. If you wish to try and actually be competitive in some manner, you will want to keep the springs stock for now, or be prepared to enter a whole new realm of engineering and cash-deprivation. Most clubs will let you change shocks and the sway bar. But once you start changing spring rates, it's a whole new category, and somehow, mysteriously, magically, an extra 0 appears at the end of your project price tag.

If you're looking to get seat time, you couldn't be in a better area for it. There are two PCA chapters, and at least two SCCA chapters that are within range for you. All of them hold autox events year-round. When I lived in the bay area, even the middle of "winter" there were usually at least one or two autox events a month.

-Josh

[stephestrad]

I joined the PCA-GGR (that's where I've autocrossed so far) and they just held their last event of the year, but I didn't know any of the other groups drove year round. I'll look into those.

Thanks for the spring tip. I had no idea.