OT: 2003 Boxster S engine replacement Options

[Jake Raby]

If you query the owners of the cars we have had to resurrect due to pump failure I am sure their answer would be that it can't be changed soon enough.

[Woody]

This is another bit of miss-information. Porsche requires us to do a teardown on every engine and do a cost analysis of replacement vs rebuilding.

My mistake. Obviously we're talking about a Boxster, but this does hold true for GT3s, though correct?

Every engine. Right down to the Carrera GT.

[jesiv]

Jake

I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. Who would recommend I reach out to?

Again thank you for all the information

Regards

James

[bam914]

Every car that comes in the shop with inter mix here always has a new water pump and heat exchanger. I have blown air through the water passages on the heads that have cracks in them and plastic pieces of the water pump usually comes out right where the crack is.

Blake

[jesiv]

God I wish someone would have explained what would happen when the water pump fails. I replaced the ims with LN just for the piece of mind I would have gladly replaced the water pump before failure if I new this. It is what Porsche doesn't say that makes owning the newer cars frustrating. They need to be more open! I know that will never happen

Looks like a repair may be an option. If jake has someone in the area that has experience

Regards

James

[Jake Raby]

Jake

I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. Who would recommend I reach out to?

Again thank you for all the information

Regards

James

I haven't Certified any installers for our IMS Solution and other products in the area as of yet. I will say that I have instructed two WTI Porsche M96 Engine Mechanical Classes in the bay area and was impressed with some of the knowledge base there. Some of the shops actually had a clue and had seen these same water pump failures and had real experience.

You might reach out the the guys at Real Mean Garage, they have attended both my classes and would be a good possibility. Otherwise my WTI Co-Instructor, Tony Callas has a shop in So Cal (Callas Rennsport) and could take care of you if you wanted to ship the car down.

I don't think that you need a new engine. We just started an intermix job on Monday and as of today the crack was identified, both heads reconstructed, crack repaired and the heads are now back on the engine. It'll be back in the car tomorrow and possibly running.

Two different dealers and two other shops told him the engine was dead, hell it qualified for the repair process better than most.

[timothy_nd28]

Hey, how do you repair these cracks? Do you v-notch the area with a angle grinder, then fill in with weld? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[Jake Raby]

Hey, how do you repair these cracks? Do you v-notch the area with a angle grinder, then fill in with weld? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Uggghh.
Not quite. The entire crack must be milled away and some of them require custom exhaust valve guides to be employed as they extend through the spring seat area and all the way into the guide bore.

[ThePaintedMan]

Two different dealers and two other shops told him the engine was dead, hell it qualified for the repair process better than most.

That was my initial point with Woody, and I'm sorry if I pissed you off buddy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) I guess I was just curious - if the dealer is instructed to do a teardown on the engine, rather than just boxing it up, why are so many owners told they need a new/replacement engine when an intermix problem occurs? Is this a case-by-case basis of them being lazy, whereas you might consider taking the time to repair/replace the heads at your shop?

[Woody]

Two different dealers and two other shops told him the engine was dead, hell it qualified for the repair process better than most.

That was my initial point with Woody, and I'm sorry if I pissed you off buddy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) I guess I was just curious - if the dealer is instructed to do a teardown on the engine, rather than just boxing it up, why are so many owners told they need a new/replacement engine when an intermix problem occurs? Is this a case-by-case basis of them being lazy, whereas you might consider taking the time to repair/replace the heads at your shop?

As far as other dealers practices I really can't comment. We havent seen an intermix issue in years and we service a ton of P-cars. Last one was an oil cooler that we replaced after diag. Once the car is out of warranty we give the customer the option of a teardown, or replacement. This is not a problem we see that often. In the case of the OP it seems that the head is in fact cracked. It may be worth it in his case to see if there is a local dealership that would be willing to verify the cause and replace the head. Hearing Mr. Raby's reasoning for the intermix is a first. On the internal PCNA forum we discuss repair proceedures and or problems quite often. All of the guys I talk to and go to class with go into engines. In fact, we usually go to an engine class the same year a new engine will come out which involves a complete teardown. Before said car even hits the showrooms, we will have gone to a intro class to learn about the new car, as well as a minor dissassembly, sometimes down to the short block time permitting. Cheers George. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[ThePaintedMan]

As far as other dealers practices I really can't comment. We havent seen an intermix issue in years and we service a ton of P-cars. Last one was an oil cooler that we replaced after diag. Once the car is out of warranty we give the customer the option of a teardown, or replacement. This is not a problem we see that often. In the case of the OP it seems that the head is in fact cracked. It may be worth it in his case to see if there is a local dealership that would be willing to verify the cause and replace the head. Hearing Mr. Raby's reasoning for the intermix is a first. On the internal PCNA forum we discuss repair proceedures and or problems quite often. All of the guys I talk to and go to class with go into engines. In fact, we usually go to an engine class the same year a new engine will come out which involves a complete teardown. Before said car even hits the showrooms, we will have gone to a intro class to learn about the new car, as well as a minor dissassembly, sometimes down to the short block time permitting. Cheers George. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Thanks for the clarification man. My info comes from a Porsche master mechanic, what I know about service in our area from customers, and unfortunately a lot of reading stuff on forums, so it is entirely possible that some of it is just heresay. It does seem to highlight the issue that not all dealerships are doing what they were told though. It's nice to know there are guys like you and your managers who actually fully diagnose the problem before telling a customer "you need a new engine." I hate that shit, regardless of what kind of dealership or private shop it is. But then again, it's why I am able to earn a few bucks on the side - because I know that slapping in a new engine isn't always the only answer.

[Woody]

As far as other dealers practices I really can't comment. We havent seen an intermix issue in years and we service a ton of P-cars. Last one was an oil cooler that we replaced after diag. Once the car is out of warranty we give the customer the option of a teardown, or replacement. This is not a problem we see that often. In the case of the OP it seems that the head is in fact cracked. It may be worth it in his case to see if there is a local dealership that would be willing to verify the cause and replace the head. Hearing Mr. Raby's reasoning for the intermix is a first. On the internal PCNA forum we discuss repair proceedures and or problems quite often. All of the guys I talk to and go to class with go into engines. In fact, we usually go to an engine class the same year a new engine will come out which involves a complete teardown. Before said car even hits the showrooms, we will have gone to a intro class to learn about the new car, as well as a minor dissassembly, sometimes down to the short block time permitting. Cheers George. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Thanks for the clarification man. My info comes from a Porsche master mechanic, what I know about service in our area from customers, and unfortunately a lot of reading stuff on forums, so it is entirely possible that some of it is just heresay. It does seem to highlight the issue that not all dealerships are doing what they were told though. It's nice to know there are guys like you and your managers who actually fully diagnose the problem before telling a customer "you need a new engine." I hate that shit, regardless of what kind of dealership or private shop it is. But then again, it's why I am able to earn a few bucks on the side - because I know that slapping in a new engine isn't always the only answer.

Anytime buddy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[HAM Inc]

Pretty lively discussion about intermix for a aircooled siteLOL

My company handles the head work for Flat 6. We started repairing cracked M96 heads back in 2005. I used to save all of the water pump impellor blades that I pulled or flushed out of these heads. Eventually it seemed just silly. Had a LOT of them before I finally tossed the bag when we moved to our new location. Not all came out of cracked heads, so obviously some folks got lucky in that regard.

The 5Chain heads have very flimsy valleys (where the follower housing seats) and that's where these heads crack. We've repaired around a 100 with a 100% success rate.

These heads have unbelievably small capillaries directing coolant throughout the water jackets. That's where many of the blades wedge. When cutting these heads open to repair cracks I've observed that many have casting core shift. This causes some areas to be thicker, but others thinner. I've seen a lot of that.

I have also seen other crap come out of these water jackets on heads that have never been off the engine. Earlier this week I repaired a pair of heads for Flat 6 that had defective expansion plugs installed in the heads that eventually led to a leak and intermix. When I pulled the plugs I found a small amount of .5mm steel shot beneath it. That's right, steel shot! Never seen that before. Tried to photo it but my camera wouldn't pick it up. Below is a pic of the defective plug though.
And here's a ink to an article on my website on the subject with a pic of blades retrieved from just one head.
http://www.hamincgroup.com/blog/porsche/al...m96-heads-crack

Like it or not running one of these engines after a water pump fails and not accounting for every blade that's missing is a crap shoot. Puts a strain on the shop that has to explain to the customer that his engine that never registered an overheat condition on the guage will need to be removed and the heads flushed to find the blades that didn't come out with a system flush. But those are the cold, hard facts.

[r_towle]

Well, you gotta figure that when the fan blows up, it goes somewhere.
I had this happen on my bmw, and I took off the head, found all of the plastic shit and replaced the water pump with a metal impeller one.
I was really happy that was an option, and it was only an option because someone saw too many issues and decided to make a metal one, again.....instead of the now oh so common plastic ones.

Why save money in that spot, no idea.
It's all over the industry now, plastic impellers.....geez

I never had an impeller fan explode on any car until the 90's when some bright engineer decided that was a great place to save weight or money...stupid idea.

[Jake Raby]

Well, you gotta figure that when the fan blows up, it goes somewhere.

Hell, just don't worry about it... its only chunks.

While you are at it just take a hand full of plastic and dump it into the oil fill tube, that won't matter either.

The problem with a metal impeller is when the water pump bearing goes the impeller becomes a milling machine and takes out the crankcase.

[stugray]

It's all over the industry now, plastic impellers.....geez

Part of the reason is that dissimilar metals in the cooling loop would cause galvanic corrosion and the impeller would just melt/rust away.

[HAM Inc]

In relation to the O.P.'s concern that he'd blown a head gasket it's worth noting that of the hundreds (yes, hundreds) of M96/97 heads I've worked on I've never seen one that was warped more than .004". The overwhelming majority need less than .003" removed from the decks to restore a perfect surface for the MLS gasket.

The decks on these heads are very beefy. It's the other side that's weak and cracks.

[HAM Inc]

Well, you gotta figure that when the fan blows up, it goes somewhere.

Hell, just don't worry about it... its only chunks.[i][color=#FF0000]

While you are at it just take a hand full of plastic and dump it into the oil fill tube, that won't matter either.

The problem with a metal impeller is when the water pump bearing goes the impeller becomes a milling machine and takes out the crankcase.

Considering some of the unidentifiable crap I've pulled out of these heads it makes me wonder if someone hasn't actually done that!

[r_towle]

Honestly, we replaced water pumps every 60k on American cars, just part of the process.
All the new car have buried the water pump so far inside belts and timing chains it's now a 1500 dollar job or more (944) which is really stupid considering we all know it needs to be replaced every 60k miles still.

Nothing has magically changed about a water pump,
Water pumps still die.
I wish they would just give up and use electric pumps from now on, and make it easy to get to, and sim to replace....then we can just replace them every 50k and stay safe.

[Woody]

I have been doing this for awhile now. I am in south Texas, my dealership services an absolutely enormous area including some of Mexico and I have not seen many of these issues. I am also heavily involved and respected in the local Porsche community. Maybe a car with this issue will present itself and I will be proven wrong, it has happened before. I do have a hard time justifying an engine teardown for a simple piece of misplaced impeller plastic but if the opportunity presents itself I will eat my words and post it here for all to see. Jake, we both have our pride and different experiences in this industry. While I don't necessarily agree with your methods you do build some cool toys. If we met in person I'd be happy to buy you a beer even though we may not always agree.

Jon