Onboard fire systems, Any recommendations? Options

[ThePaintedMan]

Hello Paddock readers,
I'm getting ready to order a fire system for our car and I thought this might be a good time to see if there are any opinions on which system to go with. I think that I've decided to go with the newer AFFF style system and the only real stipulation is that it be 2.25 liters in capacity or above.

FourBlades has an OMP system for his IMSA car. I think it's this one :
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productde....asp?RecID=5624

There is also this style, recommended by Chumpcar:
http://www.vro.com/ess-23l-afff-fire-supre...stem-p-362.html

And finally, the SPA 4 liter system which also seems to be a bit cheaper than the others:
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productse...sp?Product=2426


Any major difference between these? Is the mechanical actuator or the electrical solenoid more preferred?

[brant]

I'm still using Halon
but some of the newer systems are fine

note that halotron is only 50% as effective as halon, so buy 2x the size if you go halotron

once you've seen a fire... you will believe that you can't go to big. I'd buy the largest volume you can afford
you still have to practice exits and prepair as to how you would use it. you have very little time and extinguishers run out VERY fast in the case of an actual fire

most of the fires I've seen the onboard supresses the flames for only a few seconds and then the fire comes back if its source of ignition is still there (leaking gas, oil)

I feel like there is only a small chance (like 20%) the onboard will save the car unless you are near a corner station

[r_towle]

Perfect

[campbellcj]

I have the 4L Spa AFFF and it seems like a nice setup - have never had to use it (knock on wood) to let it prove its effectiveness.

I got the electrically activated flavor but mostly see the mechanical ones out there, and in hindsight that route seems better for maintenance and potential points of failure.

[ThePaintedMan]

Great points, and three of the people I would hope would chime in with their knowledge.

I am not of the expectation that any fire system should be there to save the car. If it saves the driver, it's done it's job and what's most important.

I like the SPA 4.0L system over the others for the price and the extra volume. I also like the mechanical setup, as Chris pointed out - less points of potential failure. Electric makes it easier to place where you want it, but we all know electronics on these cars...
Plus that would be one more thing to think through, as our cutoff switch has to kill 12v for the whole car. I would imagine the fire system would have to be wired directly to the battery.

[campbellcj]

Great points, and three of the people I would hope would chime in with their knowledge.

I am not of the expectation that any fire system should be there to save the car. If it saves the driver, it's done it's job and what's most important.

I like the SPA 4.0L system over the others for the price and the extra volume. I also like the mechanical setup, as Chris pointed out - less points of potential failure. Electric makes it easier to place where you want it, but we all know electronics on these cars...
Plus that would be one more thing to think through, as our cutoff switch has to kill 12v for the whole car. I would imagine the fire system would have to be wired directly to the battery.

Clarification - the Spa electric version runs off its own battery and wiring. So it totally independent of the car's electrical system.

[r_towle]

Great points, and three of the people I would hope would chime in with their knowledge.

You are most welcome as always (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[pcar916]

I installed a mechanical SPA 11# Halon system years ago. Three nozzles over the fuel cell/pump, the engine, and (the largest) one pointed at my crotch. To avoid a $400-$500 refill, I also have a hand operated 2.5# bottle in between the seats, simply because I don't want to set off the big system unless I must. I've always thought about making that one a 5 lb, but it's almost too big for that place. A 2.5# bottle is almost a fart in the wind, but might work if the fire is small enough.

Today I'd probably go for an AFFF system. It's likely be more effective in the engine compartment where there isn't and enclosed volume for the gas to do it's thing. Now, to make a shutter to close off the grill as part of the fire-system? Priceless.

Good luck!

[brant]

Ron,

you should probably plug off the nozzle pointed at you in the cockpit
its pretty dangerous

a close personal friend of mine passed out from the halon when he had a fire, before he could exit the car

another racer grabbed him by the shoulder straps and luckily he had already released the seatbelts when they drug him out the window of a race 914. the good samaritan suffered burns on his hand, and the driver possibly would not have made it otherwise.

the car was a fuel leak fire that was not inside the cockpit, and burned to the ground

the Halon is very fast reacting
I always assumed I could hold my breath for 30 seconds and be fine
but my friend is a VERY experienced racer and what happened points out that with everything going on, I think the body naturally breathes and things happen very fast.

I too had a nozzle in my cockpit at first and my race shop threw a fit when he saw that.... plugged it right away

brant

[Seabird]

Ron,

you should probably plug off the nozzle pointed at you in the cockpit
its pretty dangerous

a close personal friend of mine passed out from the halon when he had a fire, before he could exit the car

another racer grabbed him by the shoulder straps and luckily he had already released the seatbelts when they drug him out the window of a race 914. the good samaritan suffered burns on his hand, and the driver possibly would not have made it otherwise.

the car was a fuel leak fire that was not inside the cockpit, and burned to the ground

the Halon is very fast reacting
I always assumed I could hold my breath for 30 seconds and be fine
but my friend is a VERY experienced racer and what happened points out that with everything going on, I think the body naturally breathes and things happen very fast.

I too had a nozzle in my cockpit at first and my race shop threw a fit when he saw that.... plugged it right away

brant

This always bugs me when I see a Halon system. In the offshore oil industry they phased out Halon systems for this exact reason. Super dangerous. It basically removes all the oxygen out of a room. Very effective for snuffing out fires but also life.

Also once the Halon dissipates its gone and the fire can start again. There are some foam based systems used offshore now that keep fires from re-igniting. More of a mess but its certainly more effective at saving life.

I am glad you said this Brant, it is really something we should be aware of when buying and installing a suppression system.

Regards,

[pcar916]

Ron,
... you should probably plug off the nozzle pointed at you in the cockpit
brant

Thanks guys, darn. Just when I thought I was done with that system! Haven't ever had to use it. My helmet has forced (by fan) air from the front of the car but you're right, it would be troublesome in those times I don't have that plugged in... and maybe even when I do. More gas at the fuel cell and the engine!

I'll be changing that arrangement.

[brant]

Ron if it helps...
(this may not exactly apply to your style of system)

but on my nozzle I was able to screw the cap off of the nozzle
make a soft aluminum cut out about the size of a penny
put it into the nozzle and screw the cap back on

it was soft enough that the cap makes a seal when it screws together
and its super easy to do, also removeable if you want in the future

I have halon and have been wondering about a foam system or even a double system? I hate the idea of a double system adding weight, yet I know of 2 recent incidents where people were hurt...

one local guy died this summer in a 911 track fire at the PCA club race...

so lately fire has been scarring me ALOT

brant

[ThePaintedMan]

Here is some food for thought with the AFFF vs. Halon debate. I can't speak for SCCA, SVRA or HSR, but in Chumpcar, they seem to really be beefing up the rules regarding safety. Chumpcar states at ALL cars must have an onboard fire system and extinguisher. Plus they also dictate that at least one nozzle be pointed at the driver and one in the engine bay. So that pretty much rules out Halon, in my opinion. Actually, I don't believe Halon is one of the specified systems allowed, probably for the reasons listed above.

As far as I know, SVRA does not have a requirement for an onboard system and SCCA only requires one in certain classes. It seems though, that in a few years, foam-style systems will be the only ones allowed in the drivers compartment and will likely be a requirement in all sanctioning bodies. As technology changes, so do rules, for good reason.

[pcar916]

... my nozzle I was able to screw the cap off of the nozzle
make a soft aluminum cut out about the size of a penny
put it into the nozzle and screw the cap back on

Thanks dude. In this case I'll just replace the T-fitting for the "crotch nozzle" with a coupler fitting to continue the circuit to the engine. So in this case, it's an easy fix.

Now... the final calculation is to balance the front-fuel cell nozzle and the engine nozzle... maybe I like two nozzles in the front trunk with the cell. I haven't thought about that configuration yet, but the couplers are easy as pie to add. Gotta measure those nozzle outlets and the tube lengths... need a bit more wine. It's up to the installer to make sure the right amount of gas or AF goes where it's needed.

Life should always be this easy right! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[stugray]

I just bought the FireCharger system mechanical pull type.
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp...pID=FIRECHARGER

It is the one that you can refill yourself and install a CO2 cartridge for pressure.
I plan on three nozzles. One in front on the fuel cell/pump
One on my crotch, and one in the engine bay.
I havent installed it yet trying to decide where to put the pull handle.
I wanted the handle to the right of the steering wheel, but I am contemplating places where a track worker could reach it: Left of steering wheel? Above driver's head on rollcage? cant decide.

Then I will have the portable FE between the seats like Ron partially in case another car has a fire & I need to assist.

[campbellcj]

I just bought the FireCharger system mechanical pull type.
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp...pID=FIRECHARGER

It is the one that you can refill yourself and install a CO2 cartridge for pressure.
I plan on three nozzles. One in front on the fuel cell/pump
One on my crotch, and one in the engine bay.
I havent installed it yet trying to decide where to put the pull handle.
I wanted the handle to the right of the steering wheel, but I am contemplating places where a track worker could reach it: Left of steering wheel? Above driver's head on rollcage? cant decide.

Then I will have the portable FE between the seats like Ron partially in case another car has a fire & I need to assist.

Ideally you want to be able to activate it yourself while still buckled-in, which means the dash might not work as a location. I have an electrical system and put one button on the tunnel behind the shifter, where I or a passenger/instructor can easily reach it while strapped-in, and another button external on the left cowl/fender.

[ThePaintedMan]

Just bought a SPA 4L FIA-rated system. It is *purty*. I'll post pics of the system and the install when I get it in the car... hopefully soon.

[campbellcj]

Just bought a SPA 4L FIA-rated system. It is *purty*. I'll post pics of the system and the install when I get it in the car... hopefully soon.

Be careful with the bottle mounting. The standard brackets that came with mine were attached via a weak plastic base and I heard tales of bottles flying loose. I had the mount redone.

[stugray]

Can anyone see a reason why I should not put the fire pull handle here:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i366.photobucket.com-10819-1389417487.1.jpg)

I was hoping to find a place that a track worker could reach it if required.

It seems far enough out of the way that I wouldnt catch on it getting out.
It is behind the RV mirror (obviously not in the pic) but the mirror wouldnt block seeing it or grabbing it.
It would be well mounted to the rollcage.
It would be well inside the temporary acrylic windows I would like to be able to put on for towing & storage.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[brant]

I think it looks good...