Subaru swap stories?, where's fiid? Options

[scotty914]

okay this post is going to be several posts long due to multible pics

here is a down view from the side of the motor, with the body mount drawn in blue and red and the stock mount location on the motor in green

[scotty914]

here is a paper drawing of the engine bar i plan on making with a couple of different views, and it labeled with mounts and stuff. as well as a drawing of where i plan on welding the body mount from a side view

i hope you get the jist

pic deleted by me

[scotty914]

QUOTE (d914 @ Jan 6 2005, 05:39 PM)

how about running a redawg "like" sub frame from the original motor mounts to the tranny mounts and then have motor mounts to the suby welded to the subframe.

i just reread this post and yes doing a sub frame would be great but it might get in the way of the shift bar or exhaust pipe, the way i am doing it everything clears

[Dr Evil]

Nice drawings Scott. I will be flying into Harrisburg on the 30th as my friend lives next to the school. I wish that I could see your Suby conversion. We'll have to hook up on the night of the 1st.

[neo914-6]

Is the WRX engine way different? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif) Have you see this mount from TCDesign...

[scotty914]

yes i have seen that, emailed it to audioculture because i know about the project ( if its still going to exsist )

my probem with that mount in the amount of torque it puts on the engine and body mounts. i am not sure if the physics work out like this but it is about a 14 inch cantalever and if the part that bolts to the body is 2 inch diameter. that works out to about 250 lbs with a 14 to 1 lever against the 1 inch forward side of the mount or 3500 lbs of force trying to bend things and stretch the bolt that holds the bar to the mount on the body. like i said it might not work like this, but even at half or a quater of the weight a nice big pot hole or speed bump can generate a large force a aginst the mounts

[BIGKAT_83]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif)

I'm with you Scott on the TC mount. Sure looks like it would cause the rubber in the stock subaru motor mounts to deform and bend at the porsche mount. If the front bar also attached to the car firewall some way it would be better. ?????

[lapuwali]

The torque will only be there if the bar or the mounts are sufficient flexible to allow it. I'd not use the rubber mounts on the engine to the bar, but solidly mount the bar to the engine. Use rubber mounts at the body end. Esp. if you use the threaded bosses as the base of the cylinders as extra stiffeners, what you'll end up with is simply a solid cradle from the stock mounts to the front of the engine. This should flex very little, and exert very little torque on the front of the bar. This can be made with angle, mounting the vertical part against the pan, which would stay well out of the way of exhausts and shift rods. Any flex found could be solved by just making the vertical bit of the angle deeper.

I note that the ends of the stock bar in the stock 914 setup are subject to about the same amount of torque as this proposed mount would be, just turned 90 degrees. The stock mount has mounts on the end, and a narrow mounting point in the middle, with all of the mass of the engine bending the bar through a pretty significant length. The stock bar(s) are stout enough to keep this bending to a small enough degree that there's essentially no torque on the mounts at the ends.

[fiid]

I built a bar similar to the TC Design one, and the engine would bouce about 4-5 inches on the spring in the mounting bolts. The subaru mounting points are about a foot behind the stock mount positions which mean that the weight of the engine has a mechanical advantage on the body mounting position (not good).

I fixed this by using a couple of droplinks in a similar location to your mount bar idea, which I think is a good idea - but I think you need to refine it... here's why....

A good suspension setup in a 914 ought to be able to pull somewhere around 1G in the turns which means you are going to need to support the full weight of the engine laterally (preferably more if you want a factor of safety), so I think your design ought to encompass a little more diagonal bracing if you can fit it in..... Looks good though.

Fiid.

[GS Guy]

You guys seen the Small Car mount?
http://www.smallcar.com/m4.htm

Attaches solidly to the engine, with forward attachment point for a mounting bar (in this case a Vanagon - but ditch it and make your own). Anchors to the original mounts, but also further forward on the engine case. Not sure this particular mount works with the WRX exhaust layout, but they do state they've done a WRX Vanagon and make a mount for it. Maybe good for some ideas to duplicate it? Maybe Small Car sells just the side plates separately? Looks a little heavy, but sure gets the mounting point up front.
Jeff

[lapuwali]

That small car mount is pretty much exactly what I'm talking about. It's way out of the way of the exhaust. A side-shifter might have the same problem it does in a stock 914 setup, so you'd either need a bigger bar with a hole or some other arrangement. With a tailshifter or a cable shifter, it should be no problem.

[Mueller]

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 7 2005, 12:52 PM)

That small car mount is pretty much exactly what I'm talking about. It's way out of the way of the exhaust. A side-shifter might have the same problem it does in a stock 914 setup, so you'd either need a bigger bar with a hole or some other arrangement. With a tailshifter or a cable shifter, it should be no problem.

with Jon and Fiids engine, the turbos are right up front, so unless major work was done to the plumbing, that style mount would not work......

is there any way to have the mount(s) attach to the top of the engine near the front of it??

[airsix]

I've once again gone into "undecided" mode regarding my 914's powerplant, but if I go with Scooby power I'm working on a design that is both a trailing-arm brace and motor-mount in a single cradle. Sorry, no you can't see a picture. If I do pursue the design I'll share with the group. For now it's mostly in my head except for rough sketches.

Why undecided? I'm seriously thinking about doing an AlienV8 + Alien rear suspension. If I had a brain in my head I'd just sell it now and get a used Elise in two years, which would put me back on the road in about the same time-frame/cost range. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif)

-Ben M.

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jan 7 2005, 12:02 PM)

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 7 2005, 12:52 PM) That small car mount is pretty much exactly what I'm talking about.  It's way out of the way of the exhaust.  A side-shifter might have the same problem it does in a stock 914 setup, so you'd either need a bigger bar with a hole or some other arrangement.  With a tailshifter or a cable shifter, it should be no problem. with Jon and Fiids engine, the turbos are right up front, so unless major work was done to the plumbing, that style mount would not work...... is there any way to have the mount(s) attach to the top of the engine near the front of it??

Am I misinterpreting the photos, or has Fiid's engine changed? The turbos are mounted at the upper rear of the block. The exhaust itself may point forward before heading backwards, but I think the turbos themselves aren't in the way of the mount. This upper rear mounting seems to be std. for Subaru. Both my wife's 2.5T and Eric Tischer's much older 1.8T (both single turbos) have the turbo mounted up high, behind the right-hand set of cylinders.

Won't matter to me (if I do this at all), since I'd be perfectly happy with an NA 2.2 or 2.5. I'd also probably want to push the drivetrain forward a tad (which would reduce the mounting problem), if only to provide more room for the intake w/o cutting into the trunk.

[andys]

QUOTE (scott thacher @ Jan 7 2005, 07:11 AM)

yes i have seen that, emailed it to audioculture because i know about the project ( if its still going to exsist ) my probem with that mount in the amount of torque it puts on the engine and body mounts. i am not sure if the physics work out like this but it is about a 14 inch cantalever and if the part that bolts to the body is 2 inch diameter. that works out to about 250 lbs with a 14 to 1 lever against the 1 inch forward side of the mount or 3500 lbs of force trying to bend things and stretch the bolt that holds the bar to the mount on the body. like i said it might not work like this, but even at half or a quater of the weight a nice big pot hole or speed bump can generate a large force a aginst the mounts

If you were to continue the tubing structure rearward to the trans mounting points, you'd resolve the issue essentially creating a complete cradle. I too wouldn't feel comfortable with that much cantalever effect with the mount as shown. FWIW.

Andy

[Mueller]

you are correct, the turbos are mounted on the backside of the engine (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

the plumbing for the turbos is in the front, (one feeds the other at low speeds or something like that)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2-1073113302.jpg)

a non-turbo motor would be simpler and still have plenty of power and make a great daily driver...when do we start?? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/welder.gif)

[d914]

or use a sand rail header for a "front mount" turbo since we have the room

[d914]

but I think the 2.5l 165- 180 hp in our cars would make the perfect daily driver...

[lapuwali]

GS, small car sells their mount for $250 (four-cylinder engines). It requires you use the Vanagon crossbar, so it's basically only the side plates and an adapter piece. Buying their bits and adapting them to the 914 would very probably be easier than doing all the fab work yourself. Thanks for posting that.

Mike, yeah, 165hp from the NA 2.5 would be plenty, esp. given I've only got a tired 1.7 now. I think even the 2.2 makes 140hp or so. Both make as much or more power than the 2.4 911T engine I had in my first 914, which still has the best power to weight of any car I've owned. Sounds like I need to get a set of vented rotors on the car first. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif)

[scotty914]

yup, you guys are thinking like me, i am doing the suby 2.5 na for it to be a daily driver. with a new exhaust and the egr removeed i figure i will be close to 175 hp. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif) . now i just need to get somebody to sell me a welder for 10 bucks including shipping.

as for the engine bar i plan on installing the anti nose dive link. for those who dont know it connects from the top rear of the motor to the fire wall or in a 914 the rear trunk floor. so that should help stop any bouncing or side to side sway, by making it a 3 point mount.