Give a New Racer Some Guidance!, Build plans for SCCA car Options

[Redhorseracing]

Hey guys,
So I have started to clear out my garage enough to be able to start thinking about where i want to go with my 914 project. But before I got too far I figured I would present my conundrum and see what you all think.

I am trying to get into racing as driving and building cars is my passion. The best place to start seems to be SCCA Club Racing. Of course I have read over the rule books over and over and my mind is numb trying to figure out all the classes and limitations. In a nutshell, my goal with the car is to build a car that I can compete with and do well in. Maybe not nationally but hopefully locally and regionally. ( I am in Orlando Florida btw) My sub-goal is to build a fast car. I currently drive a 440hp BMW M5 as my daily and am planning on selling it to fund this project and also buy a more useful tow vehicle and trailer. So I don't particularly want to build a stock 1.8, I'd like to have a bit more oomph to satisfy my cravings lol.

The original plan before I realized how strict some of the class rules are, was to put an LS2 with either a Boxster or G50 trans in it and a fiber glass body all around. But is that going to be a useful race car? I mostly drew that up by seeing Patrick Motorsports Blown V8 Monster build.

Now currently I have a 1.8 motor and a 901 transmission in my garage that I am selling.
What type of class would be the best to build towards? I know I know, everyone asks this question, but atleast I know a little bit:
I know that I cant afford a 914-6 conversion so no hyped up class, and that if I do a LS or equivalent conversion I go straight to XP.

My last car was a 2.0 that was built all from FAT parts in Cali and was a stroker and put down about 130hp. It wasn't too expensive and I would be able to easily build a motor like that again. If I were to stick to a 4 cyl would it even be useful to keep the 1.8 motor? Or should I just go straight to building a more powerful motor? Where in the mix of class is the 914 best?

I am also dabbling in the go kart world and plan on entering the Rok Cup next year, so I know my car wont be finished for atleast a year or two. But still I would like to draw up a game plan and start moving towards the end goal.

Thanks for all your time if you read this far
I look forward to hearing any advice you guys have.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[URY914]

I don't know where to start to reply to this.

[campbellcj]

(LOL, OK Paul, I'll try to start...)

I think you know this already but you should stick with a Porsche engine if you have any intention of ever driving with Porsche-oriented or vintage/historic racing clubs. A Chevy conversion would be a blast, no doubt, but very limiting in this regard.

You probably also already know this, but just in case, it is MUCH cheaper and faster in general to buy somebody else's project - finished or not - vs. starting totally from scratch. I've had a blast building up my current car over 12 years and don't regret it, but I know I could've saved half the cost and avoided many headches and busted knuckles by buying vs. building.

Costs go "exponential" as you get into the more extremely modified classes and have any desire to be competitive. Be prepared for hundreds or even thousands of dollars per hour of track operation once you factor engine rebuilds and everything else. My car eats something like $3 per minute in tires and fuel alone.

Honestly it sounds like you need to pin-down what you want a bit more before we can help much further. Fun kinda "problem" you have though!

BTW - (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png)

[J P Stein]

It's best to start with a wheel barrow full of cash.

[brant]

just my 2 cents also.

I really recommend folks think about vintage wheel to wheel for 914's
these cars are old.
newer cars have better suspension and ultimately are faster and better cars out of the box

for example, take a spec boxter, miata, or 944
the 914 can be made to out handle any of them, but not in spec form
the 914 will take some serious cash to outrun those cars with equal drivers

the 914 drives differently... lighter... and more feedback... but that is because it is old. lack of power steering and lack of power brakes for example give you nice feedback, but very different feedback

newer cars are much more stiff by design and offer suspension design and technology that a 914 doesn't have

I love 914's
I love driving 914's wheel to wheel
but you have to HEAVILY modify a 914 to make it competitive
in scca that means 20-30 grand

the big sanctioning bodies are:
-vintage
-scca
-porsche clubs like PCA/POC
-nasa


in the porsche clubs the 914 is a forgotten/uncompetitive car
in scca it is really tough to get a 914 to the top of its classes

in vintage you at least have other cars held back to the same old technology to run against, and I think this makes the 914 more competitive in comparison to what else is on the track with you

I concur with Chris, a big v8 might be a lot of fun but you have no where to run it

pick your poison and read the rules before spending a dime. Then read the rules 10 more times. Wheel to wheel racing is really about reading the rules and building a competitive car to those rules.

otherwise build a V8 or some such monster and be constrained to drivers ed events and street car stuff.

[Jetsetsurfshop]

(LOL, OK Paul, I'll try to start...)

You probably also already know this, but just in case, it is MUCH cheaper and faster in general to buy somebody else's project - finished or not - vs. starting totally from scratch. I've had a blast building up my current car over 12 years and don't regret it, but I know I could've saved half the cost and avoided many headches and busted knuckles by buying vs. building.


BTW - (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png)

Second that.
I love working on the car (doing it right now) as much as tracking it. Put loads of money in it and about to spend some more!
I built my teen with no guidelines or set goal. I couldn't do any historic stuff because of my engine build. So now I plan on doing time trials with NASA. They do some weight to power thing and put me into a group.
Maybe I can whoop up on those Mazdas again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[Redhorseracing]

Thank you guys for the replies I really do appreciate it.

I do realize that buying someone elses project is probably cheaper, but I'm ok with that. I have already built one before and in all honesty it wasn't that expensive. My full built motor cost only a few grand. My M5 coilovers ran me $2100 for KWs. I realize that any build from the ground up is going to be costly but I will have a good amount of cash and a lot of time. I would probably be comfortable spending upwards of $15k if it took that much by the time I was finished with it in a couple years. The other thing is that the car I have now does not have a spot of rust. No kidding. No hell hole, no underbody rotting, literally none at all. My last car was practically swiss cheese compared to this. So I feel like its a really good starting point. Plus I still have loads of parts 2 trannys and 2 engines and I have paid for the whole car by what else I have sold from it. So the car is nothing but profit at this point (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Also my last car I used to take to auto x all the time and had a blast but it just didn't feel the same as the few times I've been on a racetrack such as Homestead and Sebring. And is the 914 really not that competitive?? I've seen a few for sale saying that they are class winners, or regional competitive cars. I think even the past few years the winners of SCCA has been a 914 in F prep and DSP and one other I think. So they can't be the worst thing out there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Thanks again guys keep the comments coming!

[brant]

Thank you guys for the replies I really do appreciate it.

I do realize that buying someone elses project is probably cheaper, but I'm ok with that. I have already built one before and in all honesty it wasn't that expensive. My full built motor cost only a few grand. My M5 coilovers ran me $2100 for KWs. I realize that any build from the ground up is going to be costly but I will have a good amount of cash and a lot of time. I would probably be comfortable spending upwards of $15k if it took that much by the time I was finished with it in a couple years. The other thing is that the car I have now does not have a spot of rust. No kidding. No hell hole, no underbody rotting, literally none at all. My last car was practically swiss cheese compared to this. So I feel like its a really good starting point. Plus I still have loads of parts 2 trannys and 2 engines and I have paid for the whole car by what else I have sold from it. So the car is nothing but profit at this point (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Also my last car I used to take to auto x all the time and had a blast but it just didn't feel the same as the few times I've been on a racetrack such as Homestead and Sebring. And is the 914 really not that competitive?? I've seen a few for sale saying that they are class winners, or regional competitive cars. I think even the past few years the winners of SCCA has been a 914 in F prep and DSP and one other I think. So they can't be the worst thing out there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Thanks again guys keep the comments coming!

the 914 can be competitive absolutely
but in scca wheel to wheel, you will be jumping into the deep end of the pool with really good drivers. honestly, I'll bet Chris at CFR would have 75-100K into his car

the thing about your past motor, and past experience with M5 coil overs, is that they may or may not be legal depending on the class and sanctioning body you go to.

Seriously.... each sanctioning body has quirks of what they allow and what they do not allow. building first without planning and reading a rule book for your final destination... is like going on a road trip when you don't know where you are going

it could be a blast... but you don't end up anywhere specifically, and you won't be as competitive as the guy who did read the rule book and abide by it. you might even have a faster car than that guy... but you won't be allowed to play with him legally.

go visit an SCCA race in your area
go visit a vintage race in your area
go visit a PCA race in your area (usually only about 1 per a year with club racing)

then talk to guys, look at cars at each of those clubs before deciding which direction your road trip will take you.

[campbellcj]

I would probably be comfortable spending upwards of $15k if it took that much by the time I was finished with it in a couple years.

Realize that just necessary race prep and safety equipment will eat a big chunk of that budget. And to be anywhere near competitive, you'll be out there with guys spending $25-40K on their engines ALONE and overhauling engine and/or trans every couple seasons. Multiple gearsets for different tracks. Multiple sets of wheels/tires. Trick suspension and aero bits.

I'm not implying you are not aware of and prepared for that, but for many folks it can be a reality check when they start adding stuff up. (My philosophy is simply to never add it up!) Plus as you know stuff breaks and stuff happens. I just paid a $3,000 bill for a relatively minor "stuff happens".

Brant's advice is very solid. In POC nearly all the 914s are gone and even the aircooled 911s are rapidly fading. Rules can be complicated and can change yearly. I stick with my 914 because it's a total blast and I love driving and working on it, not because it makes financial sense or is gonna win trophies.

[mepstein]

Brad at 914ltd is selling a 914 race car with a 3.2 for $16K. Super deal!

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=225741

[ChrisFoley]

the 914 can be competitive absolutely
but in scca wheel to wheel, you will be jumping into the deep end of the pool with really good drivers. honestly, I'll bet Chris at CFR would have 75-100K into his car

If I counted my labor and had paid full retail for all the parts I would have at least that much in it by now.
F Production and E Production are a great place to race a 914 if you have the budget. There's a nice variety of cars represented.
The 2005 FP Runoffs winning 914 reportedly cost over $250,000 to prepare for one race.
Racing competetively at the National level was a bit too much for my budget over the long term.
Chasing Regional Championships is a lot easier.

go visit an SCCA race in your area
go visit a vintage race in your area
go visit a PCA race in your area (usually only about 1 per a year with club racing)

then talk to guys, look at cars at each of those clubs before deciding which direction your road trip will take you.

There aren't a lot of 914s active in SCCA road racing right now, but I know of at least one person in Florida.

[jhadler]

You are confusing me in your responses....

In your first inquiry, you mention club racing and wanting to put a V8 in a 914. To me that read colossal cubic dollars.

Then you mention autox classes... Yes, FP and DSP are classes that the 914 runs in. But no, a 914 has never won DSP.

What exactly are you looking to build the car for? Wheel to wheel racing? Or autox? If you're looking to build a competitive car, you need to decide what class and what limitations you need to manage.

A V8 in club racing that will be competitive will cost a *staggering* amount of money, and the motor is only a small portion of that. Chassis engineering will be a kicker. Once you open the door to alternate power plants, that comes along with a whole host of other allowances. And all of these allowances will be ones that people who want to win will invest in.

A competitive autox FP 914 will cost a fortune as well. Big motor, big money. Lot's of chassis engineering, and all the rest.

As for DSP, since I was once building my 914 for SP, I am resigned to the fact that with all the new rule changes to SP that even if you exploit the rules to the limit, a 914 may still not be nationally competitive in DSP. On a transition intensive course, with a *fully* built car, it could hold it's own against the power house cars of the class. But give those BMW's a chance to stretch their legs, and the 914 won't be able to keep up.

XP for a 914 (like Britt's car) may be the best place, but that is anything but inexpensive.

If you REALLY want to competitively race a 914. You need to choose the class first. Don't build a thing until you do.

Brant may have the best info, vintage may be the best place these days.

-Josh

[Redhorseracing]

You are confusing me in your responses....

In your first inquiry, you mention club racing and wanting to put a V8 in a 914. To me that read colossal cubic dollars.

Then you mention autox classes... Yes, FP and DSP are classes that the 914 runs in. But no, a 914 has never won DSP.

What exactly are you looking to build the car for? Wheel to wheel racing? Or autox? If you're looking to build a competitive car, you need to decide what class and what limitations you need to manage.

A V8 in club racing that will be competitive will cost a *staggering* amount of money, and the motor is only a small portion of that. Chassis engineering will be a kicker. Once you open the door to alternate power plants, that comes along with a whole host of other allowances. And all of these allowances will be ones that people who want to win will invest in.

A competitive autox FP 914 will cost a fortune as well. Big motor, big money. Lot's of chassis engineering, and all the rest.

As for DSP, since I was once building my 914 for SP, I am resigned to the fact that with all the new rule changes to SP that even if you exploit the rules to the limit, a 914 may still not be nationally competitive in DSP. On a transition intensive course, with a *fully* built car, it could hold it's own against the power house cars of the class. But give those BMW's a chance to stretch their legs, and the 914 won't be able to keep up.

XP for a 914 (like Britt's car) may be the best place, but that is anything but inexpensive.

If you REALLY want to competitively race a 914. You need to choose the class first. Don't build a thing until you do.

Brant may have the best info, vintage may be the best place these days.

-Josh

Thanks Josh,
I didn't mean to confuse anyone mentioning the class winners that I saw some 914s in. I want to race wheel to wheel on a track. Not very interested in auto x.

Currently after researching again almost all last night, it looks like f production is the really best route to take for me with what I want to do. Seems like I can do a lot of the suspension work and body work to make it have a good base so if I ever did want to move to a 6 or 8 cylinder motor I could. I do agree that XP would require too much money for me to be competitive and I would probably barely make it to the track with my budget lol
I am no where near done researching but just thought I'd ask this quickly: I am reading this right now
http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/assets...0GCR%20July.pdf
And it seems to be pretty general and not too specific for the limitations of a 914. Is there any other articles from SCCA or anywhere else that can show some more details? I was actually pretty surprised that I didn't see any build threads for a 914 F production or equivalent on here or with a google search.
Thanks again guys I appreciate it. Time for more reading (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

[jhadler]

Don't be fooled. F-Prod is not a cheap class. Don't let the "stock block" fool you. A competitive FP motor is an expensive affair. Ask Chris. And a competitive FP chassis is a lot of money as well.

-Josh

[brant]

I thought XP was an autox classification and not a wheel to wheel production classification.


a 4 cylinder vintage car with stock displacement (1.7 or 1.8 would be cheaper and fun!) is going to give you a competetive car with the other vintage E and D class cars. A local (killer driver) 914/2.0 runs one in vintage and routinely finishes first in a field of 30 cars

its also going to be the most affordable 914 race car you can build

it will not give you the power of a v8
but remember for every class there is someone who can out spend you
so a v8 unlimited car is going to run against better, faster, lighter, stronger and more powerful v8 specials that will have a technological advantage of a newer platform than a 914

100hp 1.7, of 1700lbs in E production (1972 rules) vintage racing is going to be the most competetive and most affordable car to build
you just have to ask yourself if you want v8 hp as a bragging right, or if you want relative speed...

relative to others on the track at the same time... and the focus to be on driver skill and racing rather than horsepower in a straight line.


the absolute best way to spend money in racing is driver skill first (driving coach) and tires second.

having the most expensive build does very very little compaired to driving skill.
keep the build legal for the class you pick. Pick the class first and read the rule book first... for example a vintage car usually won't be allowed fiberglass hoods. but that just helps keep the cost down to you and makes a less modified car more competetive against others who are also held back to the technology of the time period. having everyone limited in technology and limited by rules allows for a much cheaper build to a point....

high horsepower low displacement motors are the exception to that... but stock displacement, old school technology (no crankfire), and time-frozen rule books help. read the rule books first where ever you end up going.

[jhadler]

The SCCA rules are generally exclusive by design. If it doesn't specifically say you CAN, then you CAN'T.

Look over the allowances for the engines. That's what you can do. It's still a 1.8 or 1.7 L motor. You can port, you can polish, you can *whatever*, but it will, at some point, come down to valve size and displacement which are specified rigidly (look in the appendix for FP classifications of cars, you'll find the limitations that you're looking for).

Now, properly done, an FP motor can give you some very respectable power. But it comes at a cost.

-Josh

[ThePaintedMan]

Your main goal is to race wheel to wheel? Go to www.Chumpcar.com, click "Forum" and buy a ride in the "Seats for sale" section. Expect to spend around $1000 to get a seat in the upcoming 14 hours of Sebring in September. Do that a couple of times, then start volunteering at SCCA club events. You'll get a much better idea of what goes into building and running a competitive car at various levels.

I'm with the others on this one - if you want to build a car that's anywhere near as fast as your street M5, don't even bother with a 914 unless you're willing to spend upwards of $200,000. A better starting point would be to buy a used Spec Miata - you'd learn more, have more fun and spend less over the long run.

Or, as others have said, you can stick to vintage racing or perhaps F-production. But it will still cost you more to run either than it would to find a used Miata and get out there sooner rather than later.

[bam914]

You can also run a 914 in H production. It is a limited prep car. You can't do as much but the cost is a lot less.

[Redhorseracing]

Your main goal is to race wheel to wheel? Go to www.Chumpcar.com, click "Forum" and buy a ride in the "Seats for sale" section. Expect to spend around $1000 to get a seat in the upcoming 14 hours of Sebring in September. Do that a couple of times, then start volunteering at SCCA club events. You'll get a much better idea of what goes into building and running a competitive car at various levels.

I'm with the others on this one - if you want to build a car that's anywhere near as fast as your street M5, don't even bother with a 914 unless you're willing to spend upwards of $200,000. A better starting point would be to buy a used Spec Miata - you'd learn more, have more fun and spend less over the long run.

Or, as others have said, you can stick to vintage racing or perhaps F-production. But it will still cost you more to run either than it would to find a used Miata and get out there sooner rather than later.

Chump car is very interesting!! I wonder if I could get my car ready in time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)
Just cage it and rock my steel wheels and no bumpers! lol
I'll definitely look into it!

Ok so F production.. All I see on the F production is the 1.7 and 1.8 and on the E production I see the 2.0 and the 914-6!!. Am I wrong to say that the 914 would be better suited for F with a 1.8? Seems to me like a 914-4 in E would be over its head and a 1.8 is sure to beat a 1.7 in F.
Also, I am slightly confused with the level 1 and level 2 rules for FP. Do you just follow whichever one you fancy?
Again thank you for all the responses and patience to deal with a noob (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[bam914]

In the spec line for the car it will say Level 1 or Level 2. The 914 in FP is Level 1.