It runs !!!!! mickey mouse engineering prevails :), Mallory Dizzy AND D-Jet working together Options

[Mueller]

Background:

For the stock D-Jet, the ECU gets the signal to fire the injectors from a set of mechanical breaker points inside the base of the distributor. There is nothing wrong with the factory method except for the fact that if you want to run the D-Jet injection, you have to keep the factory distributor...not anymore (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

I have successfully been able to electronicly trigger the ECU from a pair of optical sensors inside of the billet Mallory distributor....so far I have only put a few miles onto the car with this setup and I don't know how it'll work when the temperature is much higher (currently it is 45° outside.....)

it's ugly right now, but give me some time to clean it up... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2-1106100569.jpg)

So for my ignition, I have the Mallory distributor, accel coil and new 8.5mm plug wires....starts right up and idles fine, but I might install a CDI box anyways...

[xsboost90]

i love it..dont need it but i love it anyways!

[r_towle]

Will this be a kit, or will you be selling the dizzy with the sensors installed?

I really hate the limitation of the sotck dizzy, and the age or it makes it less than accurate.

Tell us the price!!!

[nebreitling]

VERY nice job mueller -- this idea was a long time coming. Hope the field testing works out well -- this would be a nice contribution to the longevity of Djet!

[SirAndy]

schweet dude! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)

PS: i still have your specially calibrated MPS here in my parts box.
PPS: you still have my roller bearings!

maybe we should hook up for lunch and exchange goodies ...
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif) Andy

[Brett W]

Is that ......







(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/huh.gif)



JB WELD!!!!!!!!!

[Mueller]

no, that is not JB Weld (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

it's a 3M brand potting epoxy for electronics....

QUOTE

Will this be a kit, or will you be selling the dizzy with the sensors installed? I really hate the limitation of the sotck dizzy, and the age or it makes it less than accurate. Tell us the price!!!

not too sure yet how I'll offer it.....I want to keep the price down so it won't be too expensive to do....the cost of the dizzy is in the mid $200s as is (if you want the Unilite, you can get a brand new Mallory dizzy with points for about $150)

[Brett W]

Whew, I feel so much better.

[McMark]

Make one that fits in the stock distributor and includes your own electronic points and sell it for less than Pertronix + Trigger points. Should be easy at $150+ to replace both those items. I know I'd recommend it to anyone who is replacing points with a Pertronix. I can't imagine that the electronic points could be that hard to replicate.

[DJsRepS]

Nice work there Mueller! Keep us posted how it run's out. What's on the shaft that triggers the sensor's. Did you build somthing in the rotor? And the pickup's what are they? Do they hook up directly to the FI harness and have there own fast acting gate switch or do they connect to a board you made then to the FI / ECU ?

[DJsRepS]

I hope you don't go Colonel Saunders on us and keep the secret reciepy

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (McMark @ Jan 23 2005, 12:53 AM)

Make one that fits in the stock distributor and includes your own electronic points and sell it for less than Pertronix + Trigger points. Should be easy at $150+ to replace both those items. I know I'd recommend it to anyone who is replacing points with a Pertronix. I can't imagine that the electronic points could be that hard to replicate.

Actually, I've been working on that. It's not hard to replace the electronic points, but it's pretty difficult to have it all fit in the dizzy and still be DIY. You have to go to all surface-mount parts to get them small enough, and soldering those to a board is difficult even if you have lots of practice, and nearly impossible if you've never soldered before. Even the new MS-II stuff, which will be surface mount, will come only as a complete manufactured board, not as a kit.

[Mueller]

QUOTE (DJsRepS @ Jan 23 2005, 08:14 AM)

Nice work there Mueller! Keep us posted how it run's out. What's on the shaft that triggers the sensor's. Did you build somthing in the rotor? And the pickup's what are they? Do they hook up directly to the FI harness and have there own fast acting gate switch or do they connect to a board you made then to the FI / ECU ?

the wheel on the shaft is just a bronze flanged bushing that I filed down....

no seperate PCB board, it's just a few resistors and a transistor....the transistor acts like an electronic valve...when the wheel blocks the light from one side of the sensor, the transistor gets "turned" on which allows a ground path to flow from ground to the ECU, triggering the ECU to fire the injector...the transistor is sorta like a relay, but it's done with no moving parts inside of it..

the red Unilite sensor is just as simple in operation.....only 3 wires and about $2 in electronic parts (thing costs from $90 to $120 at the stores)

these are very simple as well

brown wire ground, red is power (+ on the coil), green goes to the (-) coil...when the car is turned on, the green wire has 12 volts as does the red wire..the coil is "even" and happy .....when the rotor goes past the "lights" and has an open window, the 12volts going to the green wire is turned off, the coil is no longer even and the windings freak out releasing the energy within producing spark......sorry for the simple simon description, LOL

[SpecialK]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jan 23 2005, 08:58 AM)

the coil is no longer even and the windings freak out releasing the energy within producing spark......sorry for the simple simon description, LOL

No problem....K.I.S.S. is a good thing (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

I knew that those windings were some high strung dudes......they freak out over the smallest things. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/poke.gif)

Sweet set-up you've got going there Mike! Wasn't it you that was working on a "crankfire" system? I remember the pics, but can't remember the thread poster. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

Need to change your screen name....Mike (the manic mechanic) Mueller (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer.gif)

[rick 918-S]

Good job mike! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/clap.gif)

[KenH]

Mike,

What timing relationship did you keep between the "ignition points" and the the "trigger" signal??

With your setup can that relationship be varied??

Ken

[Mueller]

QUOTE (KenH @ Jan 23 2005, 02:54 PM)

Mike, What timing relationship did you keep between the "ignition points" and the the "trigger" signal?? With your setup can that relationship be varied?? Ken

currently I just threw the wheel in the dizzy.....I know with the stock unit there is a "slight" relationship of the timing, I say slight, cause the fuel injects right before the intake valve opens on 1 side, however on the opposite bank, the fuel is injected at the intake valve while valve is closed (exhaust stroke I think)

this happens on both banks...so, 2 cylinders get "fresh" fuel, while 2 valves always get a shower until the valve opens....with the L-Jet, all 4 injectors spray every time there is an ignition event

I honestly do not think there would be any measureable differance if I did index the new triggers to match the trigger timing of the stock dizzy

since the ignition advances (as does the L-Jet) with my setup the injectors advance also, with the stock D-jet, the injectors are always fixed relative to crankangle

I can play with the staging, but unless the car is on a dyno, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference and even on a dyno, I doubt we could see it as well

[Mueller]

I was just looking at the stock trigger points....the timing relationship on those do change with wear of the phenolic blocks....

[KenH]

Some time ago - sombody indicated there was an optimum relationship, depending on driving conditions. I will try and find the info.

Another way to do it might be to "trigger" an IC "divide by 2" off the points and feed that to the ECU. Hummm

Ken

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (KenH @ Jan 24 2005, 08:46 AM)

Some time ago - sombody indicated there was an optimum relationship, depending on driving conditions. I will try and find the info. Another way to do it might be to "trigger" an IC "divide by 2" off the points and feed that to the ECU. Hummm Ken

If there is an "optimum relationship" between timing of valve events and timing of injection events, it's mostly theoretical, and will only be effective at light loads and low revs.

L-Jet works very well, and doesn't time injection events with spark events. It only uses the distributor input to determine engine speed. K-Jet also works very well, and it's injecting 100% of the time. No timing of injection to engine events at all.

True "sequential injection", which times injection events to valve events, can help a small amount near idle for smoother idle quality. It also has some effect on reducing idle emissions. If you hunt up the DIY EFI email archives, or go over to the MS EFI board, you'll find the details. The short answer is that the injectors are open for so much of the cycle at higher loads that timing them simply makes no difference.