diagnosis help please - out of gas, sat, now won't turn over..., I need some help with a plan of attack to get me back on the road Options

[r32bert]

Hey guys,

Been lurking here forever, but now I need some advice to help me get my 100% bone-stock '74 2.0 liter rolling again... I will try to keep it short (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I had it professionally tuned up in the fall, and it ran great. The even replaced the fuel tank (important? dunno) due to pinholes. Then out of nowhere, it died on me. I rested it for a while, then it started again and I got back home where it wouldn't start again, so I let the car sit through the rainy season...

About a month ago, I finally had a weekend to look into it, so I recharged the battery and tried again. It turned over a couple of times, then it would just click. You could still hear the fuel pump whir noise when you turn the key, but the starter doesn't turn the engine at all any more.

Then, genius that I am, I have the epiphany that it was out of gas the whole time! Woo hoo! Problem solved! I put a couple of gallons in the tank and ...whirrr >click<

Nothing.

Now I am worried that I have ruined the fuel pump or something from running it dry, or maybe worse.

Anyway, I need a plan of attack to diagnose and fix the problem... I am comfortable with tools (former bike mechanic) and electronics, but as you may have guessed I don't know -that- much about fixing cars.

Does anyone have any advice, or maybe some tricks to try to get me on the right track? The Hanes manual isn't giving me much inspiration. It is up on stands in the driveway, and summer is quickly coming to a close (read: football starting). I would hate to have to tow it back to the mechanic if it is something easy.

Any good jokes about me being an idiot will be appreciated (though I am SURE it was the fuel gauge!) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

thanks!

-Robert

[KELTY360]

Check the fuel filter first. If the tank has been run dry some debris may be plugging the filter, even if the tank has been cleaned.

[jcd914]

If it just clicks and the engine does not crank over then you have battery/starter issue.
Could be the battery is shot, won't take a charge or is really run down and you did not charge it enough.
Could be bad battery cable connections, corrosion at the battery posts, loose/dirty ground connection at the body by the battery or the cable from the trans to the body.
Could be the starter has died and can't crank the engine over.

I would probably start by cleaning the battery posts and cable end and then charging the battery a very long time. If the battery is not a sealed maintenance free type I would also check the water level in the cells.

If it cranks but does not fire then iy could be a host of other things, including the fuel filter.

Jim

[swooshdave]

If it just clicks and the engine does not crank over then you have battery/starter issue.
Could be the battery is shot, won't take a charge or is really run down and you did not charge it enough.
Could be bad battery cable connections, corrosion at the battery posts, loose/dirty ground connection at the body by the battery or the cable from the trans to the body.
Could be the starter has died and can't crank the engine over.

I would probably start by cleaning the battery posts and cable end and then charging the battery a very long time. If the battery is not a sealed maintenance free type I would also check the water level in the cells.

If it cranks but does not fire then iy could be a host of other things, including the fuel filter.

Jim

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

You let it sit without being on a trickle charger. Points to a battery issue. Also was it out of gas or a vapor lock situation?

[r32bert]

If it just clicks and the engine does not crank over then you have battery/starter issue.
Could be the battery is shot, won't take a charge or is really run down and you did not charge it enough.
Could be bad battery cable connections, corrosion at the battery posts, loose/dirty ground connection at the body by the battery or the cable from the trans to the body.
Could be the starter has died and can't crank the engine over.

I would probably start by cleaning the battery posts and cable end and then charging the battery a very long time. If the battery is not a sealed maintenance free type I would also check the water level in the cells.

If it cranks but does not fire then iy could be a host of other things, including the fuel filter.

Jim

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

You let it sit without being on a trickle charger. Points to a battery issue. Also was it out of gas or a vapor lock situation?

Thanks for the replies. Responses to everyone so far:

I will check the fuel filter.

It is a relatively new maintenance free battery, and I charged it overnight when I went at it... It is a Manny Moe & Jack charger, but it was on for a long time and reported that it was "full." I got 12v on the multimeter, but did not check the voltage to the starter. I will also check the ground strap now that it is on the stands.

My fear is that I killed the starter. How do I tell, and could it just be a relay?

I have never had vapor lock issues with the car... Maybe I'm just lucky. When I (finally) put the gas in, the gauge showed it. So either the gauge fixed itself (ha) or I was just in total Hodor mode when I took the car out that last time...

My main goal is obviously to get the car going again, but I am worried that I inadvertently broke something.

Thanks again, I really appreciate any help!

[ConeDodger]

If it just clicks and the engine does not crank over then you have battery/starter issue.
Could be the battery is shot, won't take a charge or is really run down and you did not charge it enough.
Could be bad battery cable connections, corrosion at the battery posts, loose/dirty ground connection at the body by the battery or the cable from the trans to the body.
Could be the starter has died and can't crank the engine over.

I would probably start by cleaning the battery posts and cable end and then charging the battery a very long time. If the battery is not a sealed maintenance free type I would also check the water level in the cells.

If it cranks but does not fire then iy could be a host of other things, including the fuel filter.

Jim

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[JStroud]

How soon after the tune up did the car start dying, if right away maybe there's a kinked fuel line from replacing the tank. The not cranking would be another problem.

[Dr Evil]

Short the starter at the starter buy crossing the battery input to the starter and the terminal on the solenoid. If it does not turn over then the starter is dead. IF it does turn over, then the start circuit is bad. Check voltage from yellow wire that triggers starter when key is turned to the start position to verify. If you get decent voltage, get a relat and put it in the system as they need less current to trigger.

BTW, in neutral, expect sparks.

[r32bert]

How soon after the tune up did the car start dying, if right away maybe there's a kinked fuel line from replacing the tank. The not cranking would be another problem.

I drove it half a dozen times after the service. The guy is famous for his skill with 914s so I am confident that he did it right. Crossing my fingers regardless.

[r32bert]

Short the starter at the starter buy crossing the battery input to the starter and the terminal on the solenoid. If it does not turn over then the starter is dead. IF it does turn over, then the start circuit is bad. Check voltage from yellow wire that triggers starter when key is turned to the start position to verify. If you get decent voltage, get a relat and put it in the system as they need less current to trigger.

BTW, in neutral, expect sparks.

I have the battery on a 24 hour "soak" right now. I will try shorting the starter and see what happens...

what's a relat? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[r32bert]

If it just clicks and the engine does not crank over then you have battery/starter issue.
Could be the battery is shot, won't take a charge or is really run down and you did not charge it enough.
Could be bad battery cable connections, corrosion at the battery posts, loose/dirty ground connection at the body by the battery or the cable from the trans to the body.
Could be the starter has died and can't crank the engine over.

I would probably start by cleaning the battery posts and cable end and then charging the battery a very long time. If the battery is not a sealed maintenance free type I would also check the water level in the cells.

If it cranks but does not fire then iy could be a host of other things, including the fuel filter.

Jim

Okay, so, I had the battery on the charger for > 20 hours. The clamps looked fine, but I sanded down the insides just to be sure. Tried the key: buzz, click, nothing.

Then I went after the grounding strap. It was pretty gunked over, so I was hopeful. I cleaned it off and hit it with an emery board (sorry honey)... I attached a pic for fun. Clean enough? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Tried the key again: buzz, click, nothing.

Put it in "run," climbed under and shorted the starter. Lots of sparks, but no crank. Not even a noise.

My thinking now is that I somehow roasted the starter in my attempts to start it with no gas... Though, I did not clean the other end of the grounding strap. Is that worth a shot?

How big of a job is it to replace a starter? Also, any opinions on getting a new high-torque starter vs. a rebuilt one? On pelican, they are $250 and the rebuilt is only $115.

Once I am done poking around, I will drop it back down to the ground and try bump starting it just to see what happens.

Anyone got any other suggestions before I take it off the stands?

Thanks again for the help!


(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/zalot.com-11754-1407129631.1.jpg)

[messix]

starter is easy.

disconnect the neg at the battery, disconnect the wires at the starter take a good cell phone picture off where they go first. remove starter.

one nut under on the starter and a bolt and nut that go through the bell housing and the access is inside the engine compartment you will see it. it's kind of a bitch but use a vice grip to hold it while youre under the car loosening the nut or bolt .. which ever way they put it in.

install in reverse order

[rhodyguy]

Swapping out the starter is an easy task. The bottom of the starter is secured by a nut on a stud. The top is fastened by a NUT inside the engine compartment and a bolt captured by a notch on the starter flange. If the nut starts to spin and won't come off the bolt head has slipped out of the notch. I looked at a car that needed a new starter. The owner cut the floor and the forward bulkhead and attacked the BOLT head with a grinder. With no success other than making a mess of things. Asked him why he did that when the nut was in the engine compartment. He didn't believe me. Asked for the 17 or 19 wrench and removed nut. Then he decided not to sell the car.

[cwpeden]

Did you try tapping the solenoid with a mallet to see if it was stuck?

[partwerks]

Dump that fossilized. braided trans cable for a new battery cable. Might solve some problems?

[Dr Evil]

Change the starter. If you hit it and it runs, it will stick again and usually when you are away from home. Put a relay in to save you start switch. You may want to upgrade to the hi torque starter. I like them a lot.

Cleaning and having good grounds is a good thing, but did not kill your starter. 40 years leading to worn out brushes and a dirty commutator did that. Its the circle of life.

[pcar916]

If it turns out to be the starter, I've used the high-torque versions in both the 911 and 914(-6) since 199x (I have gray hair and can't remember exactly when I started with them). Even without a relay they work better than the stock starter over the years. A secondary but important advantage is that they're smaller. So it's a lot easier to get a socket on the top nut. That's a big deal in my book... I'm a lazy mechanic.

I agree with Evil that the relay is a far better long-term solution than toasting the ignition switch contacts constantly. It's the electrical right-thing-to-do.

Good luck

[Cap'n Krusty]

You can charge a bad battery for a year and it won't make it good. TEST THE BATTERY! It can be done by any competent auto repair shop, or the guys at Interstate or Sears. They'll charge it, load test it, and report back. You can do the same at home. Charge it, put a volt meter across the terminals, and have someone attempt to crank the engine. If the initial voltage reading goes away when you turn the key, you have your answer .......................

The Cap'n

[r32bert]

You can charge a bad battery for a year and it won't make it good. TEST THE BATTERY! It can be done by any competent auto repair shop, or the guys at Interstate or Sears. They'll charge it, load test it, and report back. You can do the same at home. Charge it, put a volt meter across the terminals, and have someone attempt to crank the engine. If the initial voltage reading goes away when you turn the key, you have your answer .......................

The Cap'n

I hit the starter with a mallet, and it sounded different when I tried to start it again with the key, but no dice. Then I shorted the starter, no dice. It does kindof sound like it wants to move, unlike before, so hitting it -did- do something (or maybe I could just hear it better because I was under the car while my son turned the key (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

After all of the attempts of the last 3 or 4 days, I finally checked the battery (Thanks Cap'n) ... results:

10v when I connected up initially, then it dropped down to ~5 when trying to start. Pretty much the same over multiple tries with the worst (lowest) readings being 9 dropping down to 4 on the last attempt.

It pretty much stayed at 5v each time. Does that mean the battery is okay?

I'm to the point where I think it is a done deal now and I have to swap out the starter. When I do, I will definitely add the relay (just saw a kit on pelican parts for $25) and new grounding strap to be safe. The high torque starter sounds like the way to go too.

Though, not cleaning the other end of that grounding strap is really bugging me... . . .

Thanks for all the help guys, I really appreciate the advice. I'll post again when/if I get anywhere.

[jcd914]

If 10 volts is all you after charging the battery is no good.
Theoretically a fully charged lead acid battery is 13.2 volts (2.2 volts per cell).
You should be near 10 volts while cranking the engine over.
The FI control unit need around 9 volts to function.

Do you have another vehicle you could use to jump start from?

Jim