Ignition Switch issues, and FORD relay questions Options

[malcolm2]

old hot start thread

I commented on the above thread. My issue was not HOT START, it was just START. Well I bought two $8 switches as a precaution. They were MEYLE so I thought they were made in Germany, but made in China is stamped on them, so I figured they might fail. My first one has died after only a few months. or at least I thought it died.

I took the steering column apart and EVERY SINGLE time I use a screw driver in the switch recess to start the car, it works. The wires and the switch are just hanging under the dash and I take a standard screw driver, insert and turn with 100% success.

When I install the switch and the key mechanism on the shaft and I get it to start once or twice then nothing. All 3 of the switches react this way.

Anyone have any ideas about what might be happening.

Clark

[Mike Bellis]

old hot start thread

I commented on the above thread. My issue was not HOT START, it was just START. Well I bought two $8 switches as a precaution. They were MEYLE so I thought they were made in Germany, but made in China is stamped on them, so I figured they might fail. My first one has died after only a few months. or at least I thought it died.

I took the steering column apart and EVERY SINGLE time I use a screw driver in the switch recess to start the car, it works. The wires and the switch are just hanging under the dash and I take a standard screw driver, insert and turn with 100% success.

When I install the switch and the key mechanism on the shaft and I get it to start once or twice then nothing. All 3 of the switches react this way.

Anyone have any ideas about what might be happening.

Clark

The original switch was not intended to work for 40 years. The replacement switches are not built to the same quality. With a new switch, starting loads will fry the switch quickly. Carbon builds up on the contact points due to the current overload. Modern cars no longer connect the switch directly to the starter. I relay is used to carry the high current load. In the early years this was called a hot start relay. Now I would recommend all 914's have a starter relay to prevent premature switch failure.

Add a relay controlled by the switch. Relay load is only 40mA verses the 10A the solenoid requires to engage the starter. You clearly have either carbon build up or have fried the contacts of the Chinese switch.

[Mike Bellis]

The screwdriver is applying pressure on the contacts as you hold the 2 pieces. This is cutting through the carbon build up.

[patssle]

Now I would recommend all 914's have a starter relay to prevent premature switch failure.

Or a push button on the dash. Still requires the key turned to the ON position but the heavy starter solenoid current runs through the button.

[malcolm2]

Ok, help me out here. I see lots of posts about this relay. Seems like the FORD relay will be the easiest. I am not electrically savvy here. so can someone add some detail to this drawing? Wire colors, existing wires?, new wires.... that kinda thing. Maybe some more pictures, I've seen quite a few of the VW Samba relay that some people say is not the way to go, but not any ford relay pix..




Is the wire labeled 12 v the yellow wire???

[Cap'n Krusty]

Yes. However, I would suspect the tumbler assembly is worn out. It consists of the tumbler, the long actuating cam, and a pin, and it's likely as old as the car. The cam is made of pot metal, the pin of hardened steel, and the end of the tumbler is pot metal. Look there first. I suspect the cam isn't turning far enough at its tip to actuate the switch. I've seen cars with the cam actually broken off, meaning turning the key had no effect at all. All the relays in the world aren't going to solve the problem of a non-existent signal.

The Cap'n

[malcolm2]

Yes. However, I would suspect the tumbler assembly is worn out. It consists of the tumbler, the long actuating cam, and a pin, and it's likely as old as the car. The cam is made of pot metal, the pin of hardened steel, and the end of the tumbler is pot metal. Look there first. I suspect the cam isn't turning far enough at its tip to actuate the switch. I've seen cars with the cam actually broken off, meaning turning the key had no effect at all. All the relays in the world aren't going to solve the problem of a non-existent signal.

The Cap'n

I was leaning that way, but could not figure out how to get the tumbler out. Can NEW parts be purchased and re-keyed?

Clark

[914Sixer]

NEW Tumblers are NLA. Electrical ends are plentiful.

[malcolm2]

NEW Tumblers are NLA. Electrical ends are plentiful.

OK so what do people do when the tumblers etc.... are too worn?

[Bills914-4]

NEW Tumblers are NLA. Electrical ends are plentiful.

OK so what do people do when the tumblers etc.... are too worn?

I used a vw bug one in mine (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) , down side is vw key, no more porsche key (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) , & I now have two different type of key blanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) ,

sorry I dont remember what year vw , it's the the with coluum lock system ,
I took my tumbler down to vw parts store to match it up, Bill D.

[jaxdream]

Malcolm contact tweet , he's a member here that does lock rekeying and sells tumblers / wafers for 914 locks . Porsche / VW used the same wafers in all the locks on the 914, with the exception of the "valet " wafers . He does good work and can help with cylinder lock problems . Good luck ....

Jack

[Andyrew]

I couldnt find a decent switch. I ended up using a 10 dollar switch from my FLAPS and mounting it to the dash. Never an issue again.

[Bills914-4]

Malcolm contact tweet , he's a member here that does lock rekeying and sells tumblers / wafers for 914 locks . Porsche / VW used the same wafers in all the locks on the 914, with the exception of the "valet " wafers . He does good work and can help with cylinder lock problems . Good luck ....

Jack

Hmm (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) , he's just down the turnpike for me , can the vw tumbler be redone to
work with a porsche key blank ? Bill D.

I guess I'll PM him and ask ,

[malcolm2]

Ok, help me out here. I see lots of posts about this relay. Seems like the FORD relay will be the easiest. I am not electrically savvy here. so can someone add some detail to this drawing? Wire colors, existing wires?, new wires.... that kinda thing. Maybe some more pictures, I've seen quite a few of the VW Samba relay that some people say is not the way to go, but not any ford relay pix..




Is the wire labeled 12 v the yellow wire???

I kept searching and found a picture..... It raises a question or two as well.

Where and how to mount the relay, style or part number of the relay, etc....

Other than that, I think I got it, now I just need to get one. And work on my tumblers.

[SLITS]

Ok, help me out here. I see lots of posts about this relay. Seems like the FORD relay will be the easiest. I am not electrically savvy here. so can someone add some detail to this drawing? Wire colors, existing wires?, new wires.... that kinda thing. Maybe some more pictures, I've seen quite a few of the VW Samba relay that some people say is not the way to go, but not any ford relay pix..




Is the wire labeled 12 v the yellow wire???

I kept searching and found a picture..... It raises a question or two as well.

Where and how to mount the relay, style or part number of the relay, etc....

Other than that, I think I got it, now I just need to get one. And work on my tumblers.

I mounted mine to the trunk floor.

Whoever did this installation used the wrong wire gauge.

From the battery & alternator to one side of the Ford Solenoid - large terminal (same wires currently connected to large post on starter solenoid)

From the other side (large) - battery cable to large post on starter & wire to spade terminal on existing starter. (#2 or #4 cable)

12V yellow wire (from key switch) to the terminal on Ford solenoid.

All this does is take the load off the ignition switch. All high amperage voltage is handled by the Ford Solenoid and it takes minimal amps to activate it.

Or watch the video link below.

Video of install

[malcolm2]

Sorry Stu, but I don't follow exactly. At first you said the wires were the wrong size, but then you never gave a size and you mention the battery cable in 2 places.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) do you mean to use a wire the same size as the car's battery wire?

The video was interesting, but raised more thoughts and questions. So, I doctored the napkin drawing.

Can anyone confirm my questions in GREEN ?

[Java2570]

For a starter relay, I bought this one from McMark @ Original Customs. It's pre wired, and ready to go plus it just gets clamped to the starter solenoid. Works well and very easy to put on......http://www.originalcustoms.com/store/product.php?productid=14

[malcolm2]

For a starter relay, I bought this one from McMark @ Original Customs. It's pre wired, and ready to go plus it just gets clamped to the starter solenoid. Works well and very easy to put on......http://www.originalcustoms.com/store/product.php?productid=14

I have seen pluses and minuses about this type. I guess it's a coin flip and the coin landed on FORD relay. I bought one at Napa for about $13. Just want to get the wiring right. Lots of posts discussing it, but I just never found one with complete wiring directions. I am not from Missouri, but if you show me, I can do it.

Even McMark's picture on your link does not answer all the questions. I can't see the battery wire or the alternator wire.

Clark

[Cap'n Krusty]

Having done dozens of these, I think I'm qualified to advise on the wiring. The battery + and the alternator cables REMAIN on the outboard post of the starter. Add a wire equal to or greater than the gauge of the yellow wire from that post to the Ford solenoid (or any other relay heavy enough for this purpose). From the opposite post of the solenoid, run an equally heavy wire to the 51 tab on the starter, the one where the yellow wire was before adding the solenoid to the circuit. The yellow (51) wire now gets attached to the small post on the side of the solenoid. You'll most likely need a short jumper, which should also be a wire equal to or greater than the gauge of the yellow wire. You DO NOT need cable such as is used for the battery wire, but the wire you select should be heavy enough to carry the start signal. 8-10 gauge should be sufficient, and you need to use well crimped quality connectors. Be sure to tape or otherwise insulate the connection in the extended yellow 51 wire. I prefer to use German (or other European) wire because is has far more strands than the junk you get at your FLAPS and carries more current for the size. I prefer the 6v Ford solenoid because it'll fire on under 5v, something that can be an advantage in a car with old wiring, a weak ignition switch, and weathered connections. I ran one on The Thunderbus for 20 years, the last 10 with a 2.4/6.

Have fun, The Cap'n

[SLITS]

Sorry Stu, but I don't follow exactly. At first you said the wires were the wrong size, but then you never gave a size and you mention the battery cable in 2 places.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) do you mean to use a wire the same size as the car's battery wire?

The video was interesting, but raised more thoughts and questions. So, I doctored the napkin drawing.

Can anyone confirm my questions in GREEN ?

The wire size from the battery to the solenoid, whether it is the stock solenoid on the starter or the Ford is #2 or #4 ... easily said it is a battery cable. The same size wire is used from the Ford solenoid to the existing stock solenoid. It carries High amperage. You can purchase a short battery cable with eye ends from most any FLAPS.

The only light gauge wire (16?) is used from the output of the Ford Solenoid to the spade terminal on the stock solenoid. You have to activate the stock solenoid to get the Bendix gear to engage the flywheel so the motor will turn.

So, in reference to your diagram ... the answers are YES on the wire sizes and NO, the heavy cables go to the input side of the Ford solenoid.

If my car was on the rack I would shoot an image.

Thanks, Cap'n