Trailing Arm Bushings, What material to select? Options

[IanS]

oooh shiny! Interesting one piece design rather than approaching it from either end. Thanks for the pic and thread!

[lonewolfe]

oooh shiny! Interesting one piece design rather than approaching it from either end. Thanks for the pic and thread!

I like the 1 piece design approach! It makes sense. These absolutely are silent and never require lubrication of any kind. I have a set of their front bushings. Smooth as silk and 100% noise/squeak free! These bushings are the shit!

Rebel Racing is a small outfit out of Morrow Bay, CA. The owner is not easy to reach but they recently moved into a new location that has room for machine equipment and everything is done in house. Clint has had some family health issues that have kept him less accessible as well. We all face these challenges at one time or the other. He's a great guy and really knows his stuff! Patience pays off here! The best way to contact them is be emailing them at: sales@rebelracingproducts.com.

[malcolm2]

USPS tracking tells me that mine are now OUT FOR DELIVERY. So I will see them later today and report. I am still fuzzy on the Lonewolf picture. Parts are missing in his picture, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif)

Things did move slowly with these guys, and like some have said, they were out of stock for a short while. But I did use the website email feature and 3 guys have emailed me and given me cell phone numbers to call them on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

Clark

[lonewolfe]

Yes, the threaded shafts that go through the RR metal tubes and within the bushings are missing. I didn't have those shafts handy for the photographs. You can see how these parts are all oriented on the rebelracingproducts.com website in the illustration.

[malcolm2]

Yes, the threaded shafts that go through the RR metal tubes and within the bushings are missing. I didn't have those shafts handy for the photographs. You can see how these parts are all oriented on the rebelracingproducts.com website in the illustration.

Well my problem is that I guess I am too literal. I see a picture, or a drawing and I make a purchase and I expect to get what I see. I need the damn pivot arms. In posts above you can see that mine are rusted. Their website showed the product with the pivot arm assembled and never stated that IT was not included.

Am I crazy to expect the part to show up as pictured?

Or should I just use the rusted pivot arm?

Clark

[ChrisFoley]

Or should I just use the rusted pivot arm?

Clark

I've been selling new pivot shafts for years.
I can't tell you if they'll fit the Rebel bushings (they fit my bushings), but my shafts are made to exacting standards, and are virtually the same diameter as the stock original shafts.

[lonewolfe]

I'd replace them if they badly rusted. You can buy fancy new ones from Tangerine racing and here's the link:

http://tangerineracing.com/suspension.htm

I bought a used set from Eric at PMB Performace that were cleaned up and freshly placted. I would have put them in the picture but I bought them months ago and they're burried in a pile of of boxes of parts for my car. I have not pulled out the old ones yet so I'm not sure what condition mine are in. You can also check with Elephant Racing and see if they will sell just the shafts from their rear control arm bushing kits.

Here's a picture of the Elephant Racing shaft with their kit.

[Eric_Shea]

Call a local metal plater like (Google is your friend):

http://www.leonardplatingcompany.com/

Have them prep (remove the rust) and "clear" zinc plate yours. They'll probably be done tomorrow afternoon if you get them there in the morning.

Make sure you ask them to remove "all" of the rust before they replate them. Zinc will take over from there and protect them for another 40 years. They don't serve any other purpose than to support the Rebel sleeve (well, that and carry the entire load of the back of the car! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) so, I'd say that a minimal amount of pitting on the old bushing surface shouldn't affect the load rating at all. I'm "guessing" that Rebel wants you to JB that sleeve onto the shafts. Those old pits may serve some purpose in retaining some of the epoxy.

We do a lot of Elephant installs and we'd send our pitted shafts to McMark for his roller bearing installs. His design used a bearing race much like the Rebel product sleeve but, they machined the pitted ends down on the rods and glued their races on there. It made for a very precise fit. That's the piece (the precision fit) that all of these bearing/bushing systems have to overcome. They all do it in slightly different ways.

[malcolm2]

Call a local metal plater like (Google is your friend):

http://www.leonardplatingcompany.com/

Have them prep (remove the rust) and "clear" zinc plate yours. They'll probably be done tomorrow afternoon if you get them there in the morning.

Make sure you ask them to remove "all" of the rust before they replate them. Zinc will take over from there and protect them for another 40 years. They don't serve any other purpose than to support the Rebel sleeve (well, that and carry the entire load of the back of the car! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) so, I'd say that a minimal amount of pitting on the old bushing surface shouldn't affect the load rating at all. I'm "guessing" that Rebel wants you to JB that sleeve onto the shafts. Those old pits may serve some purpose in retaining some of the epoxy.

We do a lot of Elephant installs and we'd send our pitted shafts to McMark for his roller bearing installs. His design used a bearing race much like the Rebel product sleeve but, they machined the pitted ends down on the rods and glued their races on there. It made for a very precise fit. That's the piece (the precision fit) that all of these bearing/bushing systems have to overcome. They all do it in slightly different ways.

Hey thanks alot. My decision was between the elephant OEM rubber from you or to try something new. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon8.gif)

I can see now that I did not get enough information to make the proper decision. With the instructions left out of the box and no answering the phone, plus no leaving a message on FULL mailboxes; I really can't say how they recommend installing. But JB weld? Just seems hokey to me. That is a tried and tru method? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[lonewolfe]

Hey Eric! The Rebelracingproducts front bushings do require JB Weld for the front control arm bushing sleeves but the rears do not get glued in. I thought they would but Clint said not for the rears.

[ChrisFoley]

Using factory shafts with precision bearing or bushing installations ensures that a loose fit will be required or the system will bind.
The shafts were never intended to serve as a bearing surface, and glueing bearing sleeves on them does not improve the poor colinearity from one end to the other.

[914_teener]

Using factory shafts with precision bearing or bushing installations ensures that a loose fit will be required or the system will bind.
The shafts were never intended to serve as a bearing surface, and glueing bearing sleeves on them does not improve the poor colinearity from one end to the other.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

This is true.

Originally it was a thermo bonded system that was manufactured in a fixture to maintain the geometry.

[malcolm2]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif)

bump for more conversation on installing the RSR product. Do you REALLY JB Weld them in? Who has installed the Rebel Racing rear trailing arm one piece bushing?

Lots of people seemed to recommend them, how did you install? Anyone have the instructions they can post?

[ChrisFoley]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif)

bump for more conversation on installing the RSR product. Do you REALLY JB Weld them in? Who has installed the Rebel Racing rear trailing arm one piece bushing?

Lots of people seemed to recommend them, how did you install? Anyone have the instructions they can post?

I recommend welding the outer sleeves supplied in my kits.
Two plug welds through the trailing arm tube - one a couple inches in from each end.
If the bushings are already installed in the tube you won't be able to weld the tube to the trailing arm.

[malcolm2]

Thanks for the info Chris, but yes the teflon impregnated poly bushings are installed in the tube. Seems to be a stainless steel tube. I don't think I would be set up to weld that material. I bet you tell your customers that is how yours go together? Maybe before they buy? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Pictures in previous post from Lonewolf. So here is a short video of the product. I have not installed the pivot arm. Mine are bad. Our friend Bruce has shipped me two and 4 nuts all freshly zinc plated, so it will be some time before I can do much more here.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif) Maybe Clint will call me back before the arms arrive.

Clark


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGWdoG1fhjk

[malcolm2]

The phone just rang, Jonathon says the answer is JB WELD. They say they have done hundreds like that.

But still no written instructions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

I have some time while I wait on Bruce's carton and my new pivot arms, so maybe they will have some explicit instructions by the time it arrives.

Lots of good things said about Rebel Racing, but this JB weld thing seems half-assed to me. Internet research to come on that stuff, I guess.

I guess if I follow thru with the install, I'll video the whole thing and they (OR the 914World) can have it from YouTube. shouldn't I get a discount? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

[914_teener]

+2 on Rubber for Street.

Mine are quite.

I installed 4 zerk fittings.

When you grease the rubber bushings doesn't that destroy the rubber over time? And maybe not that long of a time?

That is a really good question. I use a silicone based grease to try and avoid that problem. As far as how long they will last, I don't know. I have run the harder rubber compound for a couple of years now. No problems so far.

If it starts to wear I will replace them with something like Tangerine has.

With respect to the OP....hopefully you will get the pivot shaft there. I wouldn't use any old shafts as Chris says. They are not machined to any tolerance as they were not designed that way. You will have to make the bearing tube stationary there...I don't know what Rebel suggests ...no instructions...but ya can't have it rattling around like that.

I will say this though for the bearing replacements. I think McMark took some GoPro looking right at the pivot shaft once. The movement was amazing. I wonder what it would look like on a car with the rubber replacements? It would be interesting to test it.

[JamesM]

When I got my rebel setup for the fronts I was feeling the same way about the jb weld, but trust me, it is the way to go. The issue is that the factory parts were not precise and the rubber bushings just took up the slop, when you are working with a non compressible material there is no way you can ensure a perfect fit on every car. On the fronts anyway the JB weld acted as a sort of filler between the sloppy control arm manufacturing and the precision machined race for the bushing. once together it is very clean.

You can see my install of the fronts here.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...211241&st=0

I am a little suspect of the shaft fit on the rear though, I thought they were going to provide new shafts machined to fit their bushings. as with the fronts the PTFE slides against a precision machined race, by the looks of the rear i would think it is intended to spin around a precision machined shaft to match (unless the PTFE spins inside that steel tube in which case you probably fasten the tube itself to the swing arm, and the PTFE inserts to the shaft).

Do the PTFE inserts spin in the tube or are they interference fit in?

Do you have pics of the shims for the thrust surfaces? That is the area I am most curious about.

The phone just rang, Jonathon says the answer is JB WELD. They say they have done hundreds like that.

But still no written instructions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

I have some time while I wait on Bruce's carton and my new pivot arms, so maybe they will have some explicit instructions by the time it arrives.

Lots of good things said about Rebel Racing, but this JB weld thing seems half-assed to me. Internet research to come on that stuff, I guess.

I guess if I follow thru with the install, I'll video the whole thing and they (OR the 914World) can have it from YouTube. shouldn't I get a discount? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

[jd74914]

I am a little suspect of the shaft fit on the rear though, I thought they were going to provide new shafts machined to fit their bushings. as with the fronts the PTFE slides against a precision machined race, by the looks of the rear i would think it is intended to spin around a precision machined shaft to match (unless the PTFE spins inside that steel tube in which case you probably fasten the tube itself to the swing arm, and the PTFE inserts to the shaft).

Do the PTFE inserts spin in the tube or are they interference fit in?

Do you have pics of the shims for the thrust surfaces? That is the area I am most curious about.

I'm glad I didn't buy the rears when I was shopping last year. The slop seems way too much to fill with JB Weld (or more than I would be comfortable with at least) and the drawings really look like you are getting a new shaft.

I too am curious about the thrust surface. Did Clint provide ground shims or washers? These seem like they have a very small thrust surface area as well.

Do you know if anyone has used these before?

[Matt Romanowski]

I've only done the fronts and was worried about the JB Weld too until I thought it out. The load on the JB Weld is really only in shear (as the arm rotates) and with a good bearing and fit, the load is actually really small. Any compression loads are not high and I'm sure JB Weld has a metric ST of compression strength. So, sort of hokey, but fully functional and solves lots of other problems.