Trailing Arm Bushings, What material to select? Options

[crash914]

JB weld is some wonderful stuff....I rebuilt some damage on a front spindle with it on an old pick up truck I have. finished to size and the front wheel bearing slid right on....5 years later, no issues....It isn't a cure all for everything though..for that you need WD-40 and duct tape. Stay away from silicone sealer! or you will die

[ChrisFoley]

The fronts are very different than the rear with regard to the assembly and the forces involved.

The a-arm (both F&R) brackets are retained by bolts. The bushing flanges and the flanges on the a-arm prevent fore-aft movement which has only a small force component.

The ends of the trailing arm assembly have to resist all the sideways forces from cornering, but the flanges aren't flat enough to support a proper thrust washer.
Not only that, the thickness of the thrust washers/bearings must add exactly the correct amount so the trailing arm pivots freely without sideways free play.
I've measured a significant length variation among a large collection of stock pivot shafts.
Since the steel sleeve has to be slid all the way through the trailing arm to install it, using any kind of liquid "glue" is questionable IMO.

[malcolm2]

oops

[malcolm2]

double oops

[malcolm2]

Do the PTFE inserts spin in the tube or are they interference fit in?

Do you have pics of the shims for the thrust surfaces? That is the area I am most curious about.

The PTFE inserts appear to be tight, I'll check that and also get a picture of the shim later today.

Below, I drew up a ruff idea of how Jonathon explained the install process to me.
2ndly I mentioned to him that the 2nd rebel assembly (not in the video) slipped in the top of the OEM arm but was very tight at the other end. He said, "no worries. Just add the JB WELD, then press the rebel assembly in, if needed."

Clark

[914_teener]

Looks right.

Just make sure that the thrust surfaces....especially the serrated portion is engaged against the suspension console and that it is tight.

At the end of the day the control arm rotates around the pivot shaft.

If the pivot shaft end up coming loose, this could add up to a bad day.


Opps.....forgot to add:

Align everything...after you are done.

[ChrisFoley]

2ndly I mentioned to him that the 2nd rebel assembly (not in the video) slipped in the top of the OEM arm but was very tight at the other end. He said, "no worries. Just add the JB WELD, then press the rebel assembly in, if needed."

I don't like that at all.
The welded end of the trailing arms is significantly out of round which will tend to squish the sleeve somewhat, making the bushing out of round.
I provide a sanding drum in my kits to prep inside the welded end - so the sleeve can be installed without causing deformation.

[lonewolfe]

I am totally gung-ho on the Rebel Racing front control arm bushing setup but have to admit I'm scratching my head a bit on the best method of installing the rears. There is a lot if slop between their machined stainless tube and the inside of the control arm tube. I can't imagine JB Weld being used to secure these parts together and keep everything properly aligned and spaced. I emailed Rebel Racing and asked them to join the forum discussion and pipe in with installation details. Let's see if they do. The front control arm bushings are a much closer fit and the JB Weld is ideal for securing the races to the control arms. I know there is a solution and we must be missing something in the absence of installation instructions.

[malcolm2]

2ndly I mentioned to him that the 2nd rebel assembly (not in the video) slipped in the top of the OEM arm but was very tight at the other end. He said, "no worries. Just add the JB WELD, then press the rebel assembly in, if needed."

I don't like that at all.
The welded end of the trailing arms is significantly out of round which will tend to squish the sleeve somewhat, making the bushing out of round.

I checked the "tight" end with a snap gauge and it isn't out of round. It is just slightly smaller that the other 3 ends.

I am to the point that I am either going to have to intall these or send them back.

Before I made the purchase, there were several commenters that like the rebel product, but now I am leery and the commenters make sense. The only folks giving positive comments have only used the front bushings from these guys.

More pondering from me as I wind down with a cocktail. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

I did take a few pictures of the shims. They are not very thick and the inner dia is slightly larger than the pivot arm, Also the overall length of the assembly when centered allows the tube to stick out about 3/16".

Clark

[worn]

2ndly I mentioned to him that the 2nd rebel assembly (not in the video) slipped in the top of the OEM arm but was very tight at the other end. He said, "no worries. Just add the JB WELD, then press the rebel assembly in, if needed."

I don't like that at all.
The welded end of the trailing arms is significantly out of round which will tend to squish the sleeve somewhat, making the bushing out of round.

I checked the "tight" end with a snap gauge and it isn't out of round. It is just slightly smaller that the other 3 ends.

I am to the point that I am either going to have to intall these or send them back.

Before I made the purchase, there were several commenters that like the rebel product, but now I am leery and the commenters make sense. The only folks giving positive comments have only used the front bushings from these guys.

More pondering from me as I wind down with a cocktail. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

I did take a few pictures of the shims. They are not very thick and the inner dia is slightly larger than the pivot arm, Also the overall length of the assembly when centered allows the tube to stick out about 3/16".

Clark

I would thin you would want the stationary piece to be proud so it can b clamped in place as a bearing surface. Looks good to me. Thanks cause I have reached this point with the 3.2 build.

[lonewolfe]

Do the PTFE inserts spin in the tube or are they interference fit in?

Do you have pics of the shims for the thrust surfaces? That is the area I am most curious about.

The PTFE inserts appear to be tight, I'll check that and also get a picture of the shim later today.

Below, I drew up a ruff idea of how Jonathon explained the install process to me.
2ndly I mentioned to him that the 2nd rebel assembly (not in the video) slipped in the top of the OEM arm but was very tight at the other end. He said, "no worries. Just add the JB WELD, then press the rebel assembly in, if needed."

Clark

Hey Clark!

Did you install the rear control arm bushings yet? I had no luck reaching anyone at Rebel on the phone but emailed them a couple of days ago asking them to join the discussion in this forum. I've not gotten a reply back from them and it does not appear they've added anything to the topic on 914world. I've been trying to buy these rear bushings for almost a year, now I have them and I have to admit I'm disappointed so far. Mine have a lot of slop like the one in your video. I did not get a tight end on any of the 4 corners. If seems to me if these get JB Welded in place it will take quite a bit of JB Weld and I have to wonder how to center the their tube while the JB Weld sets up. I think that if this tube is not perfectly centered it would throw off the geometry of the rear suspension and cause some handling issues.

[a few loose screws]

Very glad I read through this post.I was interested in the rebel product at first, not so much now. How does the elephant racing polyBronze kit install, as far as fit and finish? Not concerned about the ride, just wondering if its a nice fitting quality kit.

[malcolm2]

Hey Clark!

Did you install the rear control arm bushings yet? I had no luck reaching anyone at Rebel on the phone but emailed them I've been trying to buy these rear bushings for almost a year, now I have them and I have to admit I'm disappointed so far.

I have been successful in reaching Jonathan at Rebel Racing, on the phone, 805-835-5809 or 805-550-8105 and also email, jonathan@rebelracingproducts.com. Clint has emailed a few times and they have a guy named Max monitoring the SALES@... email.

Jonathan is the most reliable to return your email or answer the phone. He says he has put the RSR product on the front and rear of his 911 and he likes them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I found some great info about JB Weld online. Lots of people doing different stuff with it on YouTube.

However, I have decided to return the bushings. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) Jonathon replied quickly with info on returning them. I sent them back yesterday, I hope they will refund quickly as well.

During my rebuild, I spent the $$ buying the rubber ones for the front from Elephant, so yesterday I bought their rubber rears. They spell it out, you get pivot arms, bushings and a tool, instructions maybe even You-tube vids.

With all the back and forth, I ended up having Bruce send me some re-plated pivot arms and nuts, so now I have extra and have ended up spending way more $$$ than I planned on this. With all the shipping, extra parts etc.... All the while thinking I would save buying the RSR units. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) Live and learn I guess.

I have a daily driver, not a AX or race car, I need to remember that when I make decisions. Oh well, what's another couple hundred $ on this car going to mean anyway, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif)

I hope this is an instance where they brought a product to market too early and just did not have all the details worked out, or that this is a side business or hobby, cause they did not leave me with a good taste in my mouth. If I had known either of the above, I would not have tried this, unless they gave them to me to be the beta tester. If I can help any other way, let me know, but I am OUT.

Clark

[Highland]

Would the Tangerine Racing trailing arm assembly be more of a "plug and play" option?

Does anyone know if the $1195 is per arm or for a set?

Any experience with delrin bushings making noise?

[malcolm2]

Would the Tangerine Racing trailing arm assembly be more of a "plug and play" option?

Does anyone know if the $1195 is per arm or for a set?

Any experience with delrin bushings making noise?

Squeaking was my main concern. Folks said the RSR did not, others said you can make any of them not squeak, if you add grease. Then you hear grease and Poly don't go together.

You should call Chris on the Tangerine options. He mentioned a couple times on this post about welding and I did not want that.

OEM rubber solved all those problems for me. I think Elephant is the only one making rubber rears. Man, I am ready for this chapter to be over.

[MikeM]

I am surprised that Rebel Racing has not been involved in this thread.
You'd think they would want to inform people about their product.

[Krieger]

I installed the Elephant Poly Bronze kits front and rear as instructed and have about 3,500 miles on them. 1500 flat tow miles. The rest is about 800 miles time trial, 12 autocrosses and driving around. I have never heard a single squeak. I have greased them twice. I have checked all the bolts to make sure they are still torqued and not one has changed. No play in the suspension. Ride quality is good too. I wouldn't hesitate to buy them again.

[JamesM]

However, I have decided to return the bushings.

I think you made the right call, given what I am seeing.

I think i am getting the general idea of their design, but there are 2 major problems i see with it.

1. It needs matching machined shafts out of the box. Anyone who has ever messed with poly bushings in the rear knows why.

2. The larger problem I see (greater then the slop between the tube and the control arm) is the fact that there is a gap with no spacer between the arm itself and the mounting ears. The rebel tube would appear to get shimmed and then held between the mounting ears, but as has been said, there is nothing to center the control arm on the rebel tube, and JB wouldn't be enough to stop the lateral movement there. It seems like an easy enough problem to fix with an additional bushing there, but out of the box, as is, i don't see this working.

This is pretty disappointing in that there still no one that makes a non-rubber solution for the rear that addresses all the issues.

I still stand by my previous statement that their front setup is amazing. Hopefully they figure out the rears or pull them, as this is disappointing.

[DRPHIL914]

My rear trailing arms were newly powder coated by Bruce stone. I sent them to PM performance and Eric put in new bushings and pivot shafts. Also installed zerks. So I can tell you it all fit perfectly and no squeeking.

[57lincolnman]

I need to replace the rear wheel bearings, so "while I am in there" I will also tackle the bushings.

Rubber looks to be the OEM choice but is hard to find with the exception of the elephant racing kit that includes the shafts and install tools. $300+ I used the Elephant bushings on the front.

I found poly-graphite to be the least expensive < $20 for a set of 4 bushings only

With Delrin as the middle of the road choice. @ $50 for a set of 4 bushings only

So what is the +/- of each material? Can you throw a few vendors out there?

My car is a daily driver?

Clark

I have the polybronze bushings from Elephant Racing and have been very pleased with these. They are very quiet and I get great handling response from them. I have Rebel Racing front bushings and these are very nice. They have to be lubed periodically but it is well worth it.