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> Wiper Switch Conversion, Different for Early Cars? What am I missing?
BeatNavy
post Sep 28 2014, 01:45 PM
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So today was going to be a good day to do the wiper switch upgrade as my car's up on jackstands for brake issues and probably will be there for a few days. I was following the Pelican Article which describes itself pertaining to '74 (I've got a '72). But I've read through a lot articles on this, and I don't recall seeing any distinction between early/late cars. I ordered this 924 switch (part number 111953519G as per the article).

Anyway, once I started the process I ran into several issues which have me stumped. First of all, the quality overall seems sketchy. I had seen the caveats on the quality of this one, but even then the quality seemed suspect to the point that I'm not sure it would work at all. Then I ran into the following additional issues as annotated in the picture below:

1. The layout is different than what I had seen in other pictures, and the wire colors did not match the old switch. There's a contact anchored to the outside of the switch that I have seen in other pictures on the inside....which wouldn't bother me except...

2. ...it's held in place by a bolt and nut going through one of the holes that should hold one of the four metal sleeves that hold the turn signal and wiper assemblies together. WTF? I assume that this contact is necessary, but it will fall out without that bolt in place.

3. The actual holes in the metal piece through which the sleeves should slide were too small. I took a drill bit and by hand worked them wide enough so I could get the sleeves in, but it still makes me question if I have the right part.

4. Dog, recovering from ACL surgery, is no help at all.

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Has anyone else been successful doing this on an early car with this specific part (from this vendor) and do you recommend a different part/vendor?

Thanks for your help. Winter's coming. I'd like to be able to clean the windshield.
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Bartlett 914
post Sep 28 2014, 03:18 PM
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I suspect this screw and nut are for shipping. I believe it will need to be removed. The screw and contact will be grounded in the steering column. Please verify your wiring and not just assume I am correct. It has been awhile since I looked at these circuits
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BeatNavy
post Sep 28 2014, 04:19 PM
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Ok, well that would make some sense, I suppose. So you think it's held in only by the metal sleeve? I did find on the floor a similar contact piece that must be from my old switch, but I don't know how it was held in place (apparently not very well).

So has anyone with an early car done this conversion with this part (or used something different)?
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HalfMoon
post Sep 28 2014, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Sep 28 2014, 06:19 PM) *

Ok, well that would make some sense, I suppose. So you think it's held in only by the metal sleeve? I did find on the floor a similar contact piece that must be from my old switch, but I don't know how it was held in place (apparently not very well).

So has anyone with an early car done this conversion with this part (or used something different)?


I tried this conversion on my 73 with that part (ordered from CIP1) with no success. I actually had an electrical engineer (one of our members here) help me. No matter what we did it would blow fuse eight every single time when the switch was actually installed in the column. Outside the column it could work (after we discovered pin 2 and 3 are reversed on all of them-I actually ordered two). Compare very closely your original switch and the points of contact with the new switch and you will discover this.
I never did get it to work and simply repaired my old original switch (easier to do than ya think-a common fault problem. PM me if anyone wants to know the exact fix)
I would NOT recommend this part for this mod.
Addedum-the nut and screw are deffinately for shipping and are to be removed on install.

Here's the thread
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act...=2&t=238223
You'll have to get a few pages into the post before you see where this switch comes into the discussion but I can assure you, you'll want to read it. Post 47 is where it gets very applicable to this thread.
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jt914-6
post Sep 29 2014, 06:18 AM
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Not off topic but I will add this. I have a delayed wiper switch that works on the 914. The only thing is that it has to be dash mounted. Early 914's, 70-71 or 72 had dash mounted wiper switch, but works on all year models. It is designed to work with the Bosch system. I have sold several with no problems and have installed it on two of my personal 914's and know, if wired correctly, it works. It's a knob type switch. The range of delay is from 4 to 17 seconds and when you push the knob it has a power outlet for a 12 volt pump for the washer feature. Anco makes a universal pump, or any 12 volt pump can be used. It also has a low/high speed too. You must tap into the 914's washer wiring to use it. Either wire it the connector or cut wires and wire it direct. Complete wiring instructions included. The price is $75 plus shipping. I know I have two or three left in stock. PM me if interested...... The pic is of the one in my '75. It is in the lighter spot, but there is a place to mount it on either side of the lighter.

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BeatNavy
post Sep 29 2014, 07:23 AM
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QUOTE(HalfMoon @ Sep 28 2014, 11:27 PM) *


I tried this conversion on my 73 with that part (ordered from CIP1) with no success. I actually had an electrical engineer (one of our members here) help me. No matter what we did it would blow fuse eight every single time when the switch was actually installed in the column. Outside the column it could work (after we discovered pin 2 and 3 are reversed on all of them-I actually ordered two). Compare very closely your original switch and the points of contact with the new switch and you will discover this.
I never did get it to work and simply repaired my old original switch (easier to do than ya think-a common fault problem. PM me if anyone wants to know the exact fix)
I would NOT recommend this part for this mod.
Addedum-the nut and screw are deffinately for shipping and are to be removed on install.

Here's the thread
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act...=2&t=238223
You'll have to get a few pages into the post before you see where this switch comes into the discussion but I can assure you, you'll want to read it. Post 47 is where it gets very applicable to this thread.

Ahhh...ok, now I only feel like three quarters of a noob. This helps me, although, just like you, I'm still left with a stock solution (actually less than stock, since the tubes inside the steering column are gone). At this point in fact I'm probably lucky if my old switch works (good thing I found that grounding contact on the floor). You went through a real odyssey trying to solve your problem.

What you experienced in your thread looks similar to what this guy experienced HERE. I was trying to understand what his solution was, but it wasn't completely clear, and the 924 switch is supposed to be "plug and play." Does this look similar to what you experienced (he talks about how he solved the blown fuse issue)? Also, did notice that the pins were in different order on the new switch. Just another thing that annoyed me with the "plug and play" solution.

Thanks for your help Dave. You're only about an hour from me. I think we met briefly at the East Coast Cookout in August at Mark's.

Thanks, jt914-6. I may be interested in your solution, but I'm not 100% ready to give up on this general approach. At least not yet.
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HalfMoon
post Sep 29 2014, 09:03 AM
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QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Sep 29 2014, 09:23 AM) *

QUOTE(HalfMoon @ Sep 28 2014, 11:27 PM) *


I tried this conversion on my 73 with that part (ordered from CIP1) with no success. I actually had an electrical engineer (one of our members here) help me. No matter what we did it would blow fuse eight every single time when the switch was actually installed in the column. Outside the column it could work (after we discovered pin 2 and 3 are reversed on all of them-I actually ordered two). Compare very closely your original switch and the points of contact with the new switch and you will discover this.
I never did get it to work and simply repaired my old original switch (easier to do than ya think-a common fault problem. PM me if anyone wants to know the exact fix)
I would NOT recommend this part for this mod.
Addedum-the nut and screw are deffinately for shipping and are to be removed on install.

Here's the thread
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act...=2&t=238223
You'll have to get a few pages into the post before you see where this switch comes into the discussion but I can assure you, you'll want to read it. Post 47 is where it gets very applicable to this thread.

Ahhh...ok, now I only feel like three quarters of a noob. This helps me, although, just like you, I'm still left with a stock solution (actually less than stock, since the tubes inside the steering column are gone). At this point in fact I'm probably lucky if my old switch works (good thing I found that grounding contact on the floor). You went through a real odyssey trying to solve your problem.

What you experienced in your thread looks similar to what this guy experienced HERE. I was trying to understand what his solution was, but it wasn't completely clear, and the 924 switch is supposed to be "plug and play." Does this look similar to what you experienced (he talks about how he solved the blown fuse issue)? Also, did notice that the pins were in different order on the new switch. Just another thing that annoyed me with the "plug and play" solution.

Thanks for your help Dave. You're only about an hour from me. I think we met briefly at the East Coast Cookout in August at Mark's.

Thanks, jt914-6. I may be interested in your solution, but I'm not 100% ready to give up on this general approach. At least not yet.


Yep we did! (Meet at the cookout) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
I remember looking at that thread and not exactly understanding what he did to solve the problem (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)
As an aside, CIP1 has a new part (not the economy lever, the "qaulity lever") and I may order it (they issued me a full credit for the "economy lever") to see if it's somehow or another different. Here it is
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?Pr...2D953%2D519%2DG
I like the switch noted above as a solution but frankly that's too rich for my blood. Momentary switched at radio shack would suffice and less than 5 bux. True, no intermittent feature but I can't say I need that feature bad enough to warrant 75 bux.
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BeatNavy
post Sep 29 2014, 09:25 AM
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Cool, thanks Dave! I may call CIP1 and give "the business" a bit and see if I can get an upgrade as well.

I've been reading that EV Wiper hack guy's solution carefully and I think I'm a little closer to understanding what he did (but it's real hard to follow). If I understand him correctly, too, there's an unused wire in the harness and connector that you can use for the power source (without having to tap into something else).

Car's going to be on jackstands for a few days anyway while I wait for the new master cylinder to arrive... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
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HalfMoon
post Sep 29 2014, 09:58 AM
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QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Sep 29 2014, 11:25 AM) *

Cool, thanks Dave! I may call CIP1 and give "the business" a bit and see if I can get an upgrade as well.

I've been reading that EV Wiper hack guy's solution carefully and I think I'm a little closer to understanding what he did (but it's real hard to follow). If I understand him correctly, too, there's an unused wire in the harness and connector that you can use for the power source (without having to tap into something else).

Car's going to be on jackstands for a few days anyway while I wait for the new master cylinder to arrive... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)


Hmmm...well that's true enough. Pin 5 of the column harness is un-used and was placed there by the factory for the optional intermittent/washer, but sadly that's not the problem.
The switch itself doesn't/didn't work (at least the economy one from CIP1) on my car.
I think what he did (essentially) was re-wire the switch and remove the rear leaf component, but it's kinda hard to follow what he did....
It's possible a real OEM 924 switch could work but they're NLA. I wonder if anyone has some closeup images of a real switch? I'm pretty sure we'll find a difference of some kind.
I've been waiting for the guy I sent my economy switch to for testing results on his car. If the switch fails in his application along with the same results I had (fuse blowing at 8 when switch installed in the column) then we'll all know for sure that the CIP1 economy switch won't work. If he has no trouble with the install then I'll assume I have a problem and it wasn't switch related. Seems like alot of trouble to have a column switch, eh?
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HalfMoon
post Sep 29 2014, 10:13 AM
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Interesting. I just noticed something different between the switch that guy was working on in the thread
http://914electric.wordpress.com/2011/04/2...er-switch-hack/
The economy switch available from CIP1 now is different that what he was working on. The one he was working on has all 6 wires going through the J-harness, the ones CIP1 has now DOES NOT. The trigger wire for the wash is now off to the side outside of the J-harness and the contact point (internally) for that wire looks very different than that what he was working with.
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BeatNavy
post Sep 29 2014, 10:20 AM
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QUOTE(HalfMoon @ Sep 29 2014, 12:13 PM) *

Interesting. I just noticed something different between the switch that guy was working on in the thread
http://914electric.wordpress.com/2011/04/2...er-switch-hack/
The economy switch available from CIP1 now is different that what he was working on. The one he was working on has all 6 wires going through the J-harness, the ones CIP1 has now DOES NOT. The trigger wire for the wash is now off to the side outside of the J-harness and the contact point (internally) for that wire looks very different than that what he was working with.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) That's part of what was throwing me off looking at his thread and my switch. I'm not sure what that means in terms of making this a workable solution, but when you're like me and trying to follow someone's instructions step-by-step it really puts me into full monkey tilt when I see something that's different from what I have. I suppose the alternative is to try to actually grasp what's happening and what I'm trying to do so I can adjust as needed. But that takes effort (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
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HalfMoon
post Sep 29 2014, 10:51 AM
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I hope user dangrouche chimes in soon (that's the user I sent my CIP1 switch to).
I'll be very interested to hear if his installation of the switch had the same results as I had or not.....
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BeatNavy
post Sep 29 2014, 01:56 PM
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Alright, Dave, I'm not sure if this is progress or not, but I tried to make it work with that POS switch from CIP1. I managed to put the new switch in and get everything hooked up. When I put it back on the steering column, wipers worked, turn signals worked, and no fuses blew at any point including when I pulled back on the wiper switch as if to activate the pump. I think the difference is illustrated in the picture of my switch below:

Attached Image

In his switch (and maybe on yours?) the black wire is connected to the ground contact (where the blue arrow is). On mine, that is not connected to ground so it doesn't short. Why the difference in parts? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

The red arrow in the picture is pointing to a lead behind the black wire (it's difficult to see in the picture) that I assume is providing the power out to the electric pump once I install it. I can't tell on the switch how that lead would get power. It's pretty obvious to me now that the black wire sticking straight up on the top of the switch does close a circuit when you pull back on the switch, but I already cut and capped that one according the EV Hack guy's instructions. I may have to undo/redo that if I find I cut/capped the wrong one.

Also, according to the guy on the EV Hack thread:

Conveniently, the mate to that pin on the female side of the J-connector under the column houses an inactive wire that travels nearly perfectly to the washer reservoir in the front trunk. This was probably a provision for a washer pump option that wasn’t implemented in my 914 model.

The wire he's talking about appears to be brown/black or something like that best I can tell looking at it. I'll pull out a wiring diagram, but I don't see a wire like what he's talking about near the fluid reservoir. It sounds like you've been in and all around that wiper motor, Dave, so do you know where I would find that wire? I want to see if it's getting any power when I pull the switch.
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HalfMoon
post Sep 29 2014, 03:11 PM
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QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Sep 29 2014, 03:56 PM) *

Alright, Dave, I'm not sure if this is progress or not, but I tried to make it work with that POS switch from CIP1. I managed to put the new switch in and get everything hooked up. When I put it back on the steering column, wipers worked, turn signals worked, and no fuses blew at any point including when I pulled back on the wiper switch as if to activate the pump. I think the difference is illustrated in the picture of my switch below:

Attached Image

In his switch (and maybe on yours?) the black wire is connected to the ground contact (where the blue arrow is). On mine, that is not connected to ground so it doesn't short. Why the difference in parts? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

The red arrow in the picture is pointing to a lead behind the black wire (it's difficult to see in the picture) that I assume is providing the power out to the electric pump once I install it. I can't tell on the switch how that lead would get power. It's pretty obvious to me now that the black wire sticking straight up on the top of the switch does close a circuit when you pull back on the switch, but I already cut and capped that one according the EV Hack guy's instructions. I may have to undo/redo that if I find I cut/capped the wrong one.

Also, according to the guy on the EV Hack thread:

Conveniently, the mate to that pin on the female side of the J-connector under the column houses an inactive wire that travels nearly perfectly to the washer reservoir in the front trunk. This was probably a provision for a washer pump option that wasn’t implemented in my 914 model.

The wire he's talking about appears to be brown/black or something like that best I can tell looking at it. I'll pull out a wiring diagram, but I don't see a wire like what he's talking about near the fluid reservoir. It sounds like you've been in and all around that wiper motor, Dave, so do you know where I would find that wire? I want to see if it's getting any power when I pull the switch.


Should be 91 on your schematic. That wire should show up somewhere in the forward trunk cowl area. You can trace it from the fan/horn relay behind the fuse panel.
Btw, I found when I removed the plastic nozzles that without the underlying plates then being secured, the screw eyes for the nozzles eventually slid down touch the inner metal tabs and making contact with the leaves...essentially energizing those outer screw eyes. I left my nozzle flange in place to prevent this from happening but used a pair of dykes to cut off the actual nozzles. Just an fyi. Look at it and you'll see what I'm talking about.
See the enclosed picture/s to see how that wire gets energized. It's really quite ingenius.
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HalfMoon
post Sep 29 2014, 03:12 PM
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and
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HalfMoon
post Sep 29 2014, 03:33 PM
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QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Sep 29 2014, 03:56 PM) *

In his switch (and maybe on yours?) the black wire is connected to the ground contact (where the blue arrow is). On mine, that is not connected to ground so it doesn't short. Why the difference in parts?
Also, according to the guy on the


Actually on all of them it goes to pin 4 and then 53 of the wiper (if memory serves)
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HalfMoon
post Sep 29 2014, 03:39 PM
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Oh! ANd also as an aside, in his thread he was getting a blown fuse whenever he activated the washer switch. In my application, I would blow fuse 8 if the switch was simply installed in the column and I turned my ignition key on.
Just an fyi.
If you get this to work I'd really like to know how?
Lemme bring my car and switch down to your place and show me k?
Or if you'd like a lil drive in the country, c'mon up. I'll press us some java!
Cheers,
D
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BeatNavy
post Sep 29 2014, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE(HalfMoon @ Sep 29 2014, 05:39 PM) *

Oh! ANd also as an aside, in his thread he was getting a blown fuse whenever he activated the washer switch. In my application, I would blow fuse 8 if the switch was simply installed in the column and I turned my ignition key on.
Just an fyi.
If you get this to work I'd really like to know how?
Lemme bring my car and switch down to your place and show me k?
Or if you'd like a lil drive in the country, c'mon up. I'll press us some java!
Cheers,
D

Hey Dave, yeah, that would be awesome. One way or another we'll get together. Nice drive out Route 7 and Route 9! I'm looking for wire/connection 91 on the schematic but don't see it. I'll dig around under the front trunk cowl area and find this wire (although the idea of that wire "conveniently" being there is too...convenient, and nothing is "convenient" on a 914!). If I can find that wire and it has 12v when I'm activating the switch that'll be the ticket.

Thanks for all your help!
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HalfMoon
post Sep 29 2014, 04:46 PM
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QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Sep 29 2014, 06:00 PM) *

QUOTE(HalfMoon @ Sep 29 2014, 05:39 PM) *

Oh! ANd also as an aside, in his thread he was getting a blown fuse whenever he activated the washer switch. In my application, I would blow fuse 8 if the switch was simply installed in the column and I turned my ignition key on.
Just an fyi.
If you get this to work I'd really like to know how?
Lemme bring my car and switch down to your place and show me k?
Or if you'd like a lil drive in the country, c'mon up. I'll press us some java!
Cheers,
D

Hey Dave, yeah, that would be awesome. One way or another we'll get together. Nice drive out Route 7 and Route 9! I'm looking for wire/connection 91 on the schematic but don't see it. I'll dig around under the front trunk cowl area and find this wire (although the idea of that wire "conveniently" being there is too...convenient, and nothing is "convenient" on a 914!). If I can find that wire and it has 12v when I'm activating the switch that'll be the ticket.

Thanks for all your help!


It was 91 on the schematic for a 1973. Might be different on other year models (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
The fact that you've gotten yours installed without blowing fuse 8 is miles ahead of my nightmare.
Be grateful grasshoppa
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BeatNavy
post Sep 29 2014, 05:32 PM
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QUOTE(HalfMoon @ Sep 29 2014, 06:46 PM) *

It was 91 on the schematic for a 1973. Might be different on other year models (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
The fact that you've gotten yours installed without blowing fuse 8 is miles ahead of my nightmare.
Be grateful grasshoppa

Yeah, I don't see the equivalent on the pre-'73 diagram. It is clear as an extra wire on the '73 diagram. So I just need to hunt in the trunk and try to find it. I may need to remove the fuel tank to find it, which I guess would be a good time to investigate why the fresh air blower is not working ("while I'm in there"). That's why she's called the "red onion" - layers.

I'll give you an update when I find it. Thanks again, Dave!
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