Papa Smurf is finally back on track - OH NO! NOT AGAIN!, ...EDIT: it happened again!!! Options

[naro914]

EDIT - UPDATE: PLEASE GO TO POST #23 FOR JUNE 2015 UPDATE!!!

Hi all
Lately a handful of people have been PM'ing me asking about Papa Smurf and why I haven't posted much about what we've been doing with him. The real answer is...we haven't done ANYTHING in almost 2 years. So I thought I would post this up to explain what we've gone through to maybe help someone avoid the same issues we've had. Many of you have read the trials and tribulations we've been through with Huey...this is not quite as bad but frustrating all the same if not more...

So while you're trying to avoid all you're family obligations on this Thanksgiving morning (like I am), sit back and read this tale of woe...and give thanks to the fact that you do not have to deal with all this!!! I apologize for not having pictures of all the work that's been done. (I realized I didn't have any as I was typing. I may be able to get some later this weekend...sorry)

Keep in mind, Papa Smurf is a full on race car - not street legal at all

Back in 2011, we decided to upgrade our 2.2 liter/6. We came across a very strong and VERY fast 3.4 liter that we put in just in time for the Oct PCA race at CMP. Engine performed great, but I actually broke the suspension console on the drivers side! too much torque/power for the stock set up. So...we replaced the suspension mount points with the kit from Chris Foley and all was good.

Fast forward to Sept 2012. While at Roebling Road Raceway, Nadine heard a sound in the engine which upon examination turned out to be a spun rod bearing. The bearing was worn completely off, allowing the piston to hit a valve, break a rocker, and jam the rocker into the cam housing thus destroying the little oil supply tube in the process. So the engine got torn down, resurfaed the scored crank, replace the needed parts, and back in business. On advice from MANY race shops, we sent the crank to CCR which at the time was in California. Armondo from CCR is supposedly the "end all-be all" when it comes to Porsche cranks (more on that later). He did the work in about 4-5 weeks, good to go.

5 months later, again at Roebling, I was on lap 2 of my practice session for the PCA Club Race and all of a sudden "BANG". Uh oh.... got towed in. Back at the shop, this time, that same rod that spun last time had now broken. so...tear down, replace ALL the rods from Carillo to Pauter (long story there) send crank to Armondo - 4-5 weeks get crank back, rebuild with all new bearings, check everything out, etc. all good. Do 2 DE's and a Hillclimb after that, engine seems fine.

In June 2013, we do our first SCCA Hillclimb using Papa. On Sunday, I hear a funny noise in the engine so we stop running. It gets checked out at the shop and I'm told there's no problem, so 2 weeks later we make the 9 hr trek to Mid Ohio for the PCA Race. Again..on my second lap of my first practice - BANG. This time..its really bad. Oil everywhere. Broke a different rod which: busted a hole in the case, broke a couple valves, destroyed the GT3 oil pump, damaged a piston and cylinder, etc, etc, etc....

At this point we are obviously thinking WTF??? (OK, we've been thinking that all along but now...really????) so we look back on everything and see what we've done and what we can do different:
We had been running a stock 914/6 oil tank all this time, mounted in the normal 914/6 position. Maybe not enough oil? Knowing we had this monster GT3 oil pump ($1800 pump btw that is now toast) maybe the flow was too great, the lines too small (same -12 lines we had with the 2.2 engine...heck with the old 4 cylinder engine too to/from the cooler) and we were foaming the oil or starving the engine because not enough oil to keep up?? Nobody was absolutely certain...

So...now we needed to do a COMPLETE rebuild consisting of new case, new P&C's, new oil pump, couple new valves, this time a new crank...and of course while we were in there, we ported the heads, increasd the valves sizes, better springs, new cams, etc. We decided to back it down to a 3.2 but increased the compression and valve sizes, thus getting more HP & torque, but more easily sourced parts if need be and helped with my PCA race class....We had Armondo offset the rod journals and put bigger race bearing in (supposedly a trick way of getting more torque). All was back together and good, finally right?

Nope. First weekend out at VIR in Nov 2013, Nadine was on lap 2 (see a pattern here?) and heard that tell-tale knocking noise. Again...another spun bearing! Seriously???...this is getting absolutely crazy! This time, however, we found the problem - the oil line from the tank to the engine had collapsed on one of the bends, thus again starving the engine for oil...Can we ever catch a break???

And after all that..here's where it gets REALLY frustrating....

Just before Thanksgiving we send the crank back to Armondo, who has now moved to Texas. Our normal process is: we send the crank, he calls to say what's wrong and what it will cost, then 4 weeks or so later he gives me a final total with shipping, I overnight a check, he ships, all good. As you can see above, we've done this numerous times so we have a very good relationship going here (unfortunately). He had told me he feels so bad for the issues I've been having that he would give me a big discount and only charge for the outside work he has to pay for (nitriting) and the bearings. Fair enough. Just after New Years, I get a message from Armondo on how much I need to send him a check for. So I overnight a check and assume I would see the crank in a week.

A week goes by...no crank. I call him, leave a message. My mechanic Lou calls him...message. 2 weeks go by....I finally get him in early February!! and he says he is working on it now and I will have it by the end of Feb!! WTF? I get a sob story about how expensive the move to Texas was, and he needed my money to pay for the nitring and bearing BEFORE he got it done, not after like normal. I'm pissed, but he said he should have it done in a few weeks, I wait.

Early March...no crank. I will spare you the daily commentary of lies I got, but after 2 more months of "I'm working on it today and will ship tomorrow", I had a buddy of mine go to his place and pick up the crank, gears and bearings...at THE END OF APRIL!!! The work was only half done - no nitriting, no final polishing. I had him ship it all to Pauter and was told it would take 2-3 weeks to get the work on the crank done.

3 months later, with almost the EXACT SAME responses to my questions every week ("working on them now, will be out this week") we got everything back from Pauter in early August!!! yes...August 2014 for a spun bearing in November 2013!!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

While we were waiting, we did major changes to the oil system: All the lines from the tank to the engine are now 1" hard lines, new oil cooler, bigger (-16) lines from the engine to the cooler, added a small oil supply feeder resevior just before the engine as recommended by Peter Dawe that holds about 2 qts immediately before entering the engine, changed some of the engine wiring to have a different start up procedure (turn the starter with no ECU/Fuel/spark until there's oil pressure, then kick on the rest of the power to start the car), redirected the engine and oil tank vents, and I'm sure much more I can't remember....

Our first weekend out was the end of October at CMP. Everything worked perfectly (yes, we made it past Lap 2!!!), though we broke a brand new CV joint. Back home, we drained the oil - no metal!! Positive sign!!!

Two weekends ago we were at very cold VIR. Good three days (except broke a shift rod...another story for another day), but engine was good. Needs dyno tuning, but performed strong and solid.

Oh, and during all this time, we added a wing and splitter....




Here are a couple video's from the weekends: First one is at CMP, second at VIR. Engine sounds good and is fairly fast, but I should have easily been able to catch the guys in front of me at VIR...needs tuning. And I'm now moving on to setting up the suspension...

And there you have it... As I mentioned above, I will get pics of some of the key parts and post them on this soon... If anyone has any specific questoins, please ask and I will help any way I can. We've learned a lot during this process.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!! Have a safe and enjoyable Holiday Season!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwdeNOwLHfI




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MntEEKR0as4

[naro914]

So basically, with a lot less typing, Papa don't suck.
Well, didn't suck, now it does...

don't you have that backwards?
Didn't, did, now doesn't.

Bob,

well, if it didn't suck, wouldn't you still be swapping in crankshafts and bearings?
Now that is really does suck, the bearings may last longer than two laps.

Now that it sucks, it doesn't suck.

Um...uh....ok.

I get it, but you are a strange man.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif)

[r_towle]

So basically, with a lot less typing, Papa don't suck.
Well, didn't suck, now it does...

don't you have that backwards?
Didn't, did, now doesn't.

Bob,

well, if it didn't suck, wouldn't you still be swapping in crankshafts and bearings?
Now that is really does suck, the bearings may last longer than two laps.

Now that it sucks, it doesn't suck.

Um...uh....ok.

I get it, but you are a strange man.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif)

Your point?

[naro914]

OH NO....NOT AGAIN!!!

So here we are, July 2015. To understand what has led up to this point, read Post #1.

Let me add more detail on the shift rod issue I eluded to in Post #1 - the 2014 VIR weekend:

As you can see, this was our first time back on track since Nov 2013. To recap, it was cold...really cold.. so we didn't do early runs. Later in the afternoon on Friday as I'm pulling out for one of my sessions, the axle bolts backed out and somehow got caught on the shift rod and bent/creased it!! Obviously they weren't tightened correctly by the guy that put the engine/trans in (though he denied it was his fault), but we lost a day and a half trying to fix the rod. In the end we each got a total of 3 sessions out of three days...

March 2015 at CMP, the car runs well!! Woohoo!! Happy Day!! FINALLY we get a good weekend!!!

March 2015 at the Road Atlanta Club Race...the new 915 transmission we had just put in expired after 15 minutes. This is a transmission that I had asked to have torn down and gone through because we knew nothing about it...but it was never done and we now had to suffer the consequences....3 more missed days on a race weekend...

May 2015 at an SCCA TimeTrial - our first ever and something new and exciting especially for Nadine so she could do something competitive that's not wheel to wheel. After 5 laps, the crank pulley bolt backed out, shearing the dowel pin. We were done before Nadine ever got to drive....

The car had been at Exclusive Motorwerks since the transmission failure in March (actually, it's kinda lived there for 3 years now dealing with all the issues). Lou was supposed to prep it for the track. This bolt NEVER backs out if it's torqued correctly and has loctite on it. It wasn't and didn't.

When I called Lou to tell him how upset we were, he asked "why do you always blame me for everything? Why is this MY fault? I'm sick of this f*&king car and sick of working on your cars" and he then hung up on me!!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)

So at that point, we were done, and we were finally moving on from his shop. I haven't spoken to him since. But unfortunately the story doesn't end there... I get the pulley fixed, new dowel pin, and reinstall it...all seems good. But 2 weeks later while prepping Papa Smurf for The Hawk vintage race at Road America, I start it up and hear an odd noise... uh oh... it sounded just like that noise back at the hillclimb in 2013.

So I drain the oil and find this:



Yes...what you see there is bearing material (brown piece is copper).. For the 5th time in less than 3 years, our engine is toast...again...

The last 4+ years have been both so mentally and financially draining on us that we are to the point of giving it all up and being done with it all. We have spent an enormous amount of money, time and emotion into this, and have nothing to show for it. This is supposed to be fun, but we have been having anything but. We are tired of being upset, tired of being pissed off, tired of constant disappointment. Its started to affect our marriage, our relationship with others, and the way we view just about everything. I'm starting to feel like an angry old man...and I hate that!!

I spent a week getting Huey race ready and transferring a lot of things out of Papa so we can do the Hawk race next weekend - only because it's all paid for and I can't get a refund - but I am very concerned because the engine was just rebuilt last year by the same guy. Huey is not a track car. I will tool around in the back and run at 7/10ths or less. I just hope we don't have two dead cars when we return.

So this video, taken at the time trial, may be the last video we will have of Papa Smurf in a long time....I just don't know. For now, he's being stored away under a cover. Maybe next year things will change, but I really don't know.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6EX9PI0r88


I'm sure many of you will read all this and scoff, saying 'such problems, boohoo', and I understand that. But we don't have kids, have worked hard for what we have, and the Porsche Club and track driving have been a major part of our lives and entertainment for most of our 24 years of marriage. Its something we do together, its our hobby, and when things are good, we have a great time and love it. But things haven't been 'good' for so long that we are questioning everything about it.

All I ever wanted to do was be a race driver. I love it and its been a dream of mine since I was young to drive professionally. I'm too old for that dream to ever come true now, but doing amateur races and track weekends at least filled the thrill part. But we just can't go through the frustration and pain we've experienced the past few years any more.

We will still do Hillclimbs and autocrosses with Huey (assuming he makes it through the Hawk), but it's just not the same.

I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm just venting...I worked with Lou to help him get his business up and running, to get him out of a bunch of legal issues he was getting himself into, to renegotiate contracts so his equipment didn't get repossessed, I introduced him to lawyers and accountants to take care of him and his issues. I brought in a bunch of customers and helped him grow his business....all I was looking for was a car that ran reliably. Unfortunately, I was being too loyal to a 'friend' who obviously was in a bit over his head with our car. My bad...

Why am I sharing all of this? I don't really know. Maybe because its the easiest way to share what's happening in our lives with so many friends and people that have helped us through the years. Maybe It's because I just want to vent my frustrations and detail how pissed off we are right now with a particular shop... Maybe because I'm mad at myself because I didn't see the obvious signs long ago and move on... I don't know...

Thanks for reading....

[trojanhorsepower]

Bob,

I am sure that everyone here feels just sympathy. Frustration and disappointment are universal regardless of tax bracket.

Thank you for sharing, and who knows maybe some here can help. If I can do something to help please let me know.

Peter

[EdwardBlume]

Nothing worthwhile is ever easy. Your long journey will make your success all the sweeter. Find a new builder, or find a new engine. There are great people who can build motors, like Jerry Woods out here in CA.

I don't recommend giving up on a dream. You will see things thing through. There's always a solution for determined people, and you've done more with your cars than most can do in their lifetimes.

Hang in there!

[AndyB]

Bob,

I feel your pain. I have invested both time and lots of financial resources into Scarlet. Last year Racer Chris had that car tuned and dialed perfect. I drove her right until the salt hit the road. This past January I finally cleared out my brothers belongings and was finally able to put the 914 in the garage. I started it and she went from zero to well past red line before I was able to turn the key off. Spun a couple of bearings and made some circle holes into ovals. I was pissed at myself, my brother for dying, and 5 degree weather. Today I will go outside greet both 914's and continue my work on one in order to attempt and have one for Hershey next year. Trust me I am empathetic to your cause. I am not a high roller when it comes to my finances, I save and ask my wife for prior approval on purchases. This almost broke me on restoring the car, I spent months working overtime for this engine. I eventually got past (not over) the engine and am going a different route. Stay with the car, give it time find a mechanic that you can trust and go from there.

Andy

[brant]

It's got to get better.
Sorry for the terrible luck
Maybe a different wrench will bring longevity
Sucky
Hang in there

[campbellcj]

That does bite and like many of us, I can relate somewhat too. I bought my current engine newly-rebuilt in a crate with dyno time only. It had been built by a 'reputable' builder yet after only two seasons - not even very busy/intense ones - I had to have it fully rebuilt again which cost a boatload in time and cash. Once apart, my builder found some questionable machine work and parts he frowned upon.

If you decide to stay in the game, you may want to consider shipping the engine out to someone like Aase here in SoCal. They build many of the top aircooled race motors out west and will stand by their work. (I have never used them but probably will in the future.) Obviously there are other solid shops too.

[naro914]

Hey guys
Thanks. There's a few issues at hand here: We honestly don't have the money to fix it and even if we did, we're struggling with the thought of spending a boatload more just to hope we have no issues. This is the 5th time in less than 3 years with virtually no "good time". I know who it would be going to - Peter Dawe at Dawes Motorsports. That's where we should have gone years ago. He ain't cheap, but builds awesome race engines.
The other issue is...like all of us here, we keep trying to fix a 40 year old car. Sure a lot of it is newer technology, but in the end it's a 40 year old car that has been so modified it doesn't fit competitively into any race classes. We can't compete with the spending race that is PCA GT classes, it's not really competitive as an SCCA GT2 class car, and it's not vintage legal...so what do I do with it? If it's just for DE or to "participate" with no chance to compete, does it make sense to spend the kind of money and effort we have???

[brant]

Make it vintage legal
You are building the motor anyways. Go 2.0!

Or sell it and buy a used spec boxter for pca

[poorsche914]

I guess you could say Papa Smurf is your "bad kid"... the one that is always causing heartache but you love him anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)
Give him some tough love... go back to vintage legal as Brant mentioned. Yeah, he won't be as fast but maybe he'll learn to behave.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[naro914]

Make it vintage legal
You are building the motor anyways. Go 2.0!

Or sell it and buy a used spec hosted for pca

Vintage has a problem with the body, wing, splitter,wheels,/tires ,engine, suspension, etc. ....basically the whole car.

Would be cheaper to just buy a different car...which again, leaves Papa where?

[matthepcat]

Bummer. Maybe consider engine conversion in your race car. Porsche motors are expensive to blow up, but Subaru or LS1 is affordable? Blasphemy yes, but it's a race car...not much left that is Porsche at that point.

[Mueller]

Bummer. Maybe consider engine conversion in your race car. Porsche motors are expensive to blow up, but Subaru or LS1 is affordable? Blasphemy yes, but it's a race car...not much left that is Porsche at that point.

This was my thought as well, at least here in CA one could still play at the PCA autocross (fun runs, no class) the SCCA autocross and NASA track days.

No real times and not sure how easy to do 2 drivers with the track days.

Sorry to hear about your motor issues, this is what is keeping me with the stockish Type IV motors, I don't the stomach to dump that much time or money into something and have it go south.

[billh1963]

OH NO....NOT AGAIN!!!

I worked with Lou to help him get his business up and running, to get him out of a bunch of legal issues he was getting himself into, to renegotiate contracts so his equipment didn't get repossessed, I introduced him to lawyers and accountants to take care of him and his issues. I brought in a bunch of customers and helped him grow his business....all I was looking for was a car that ran reliably. Unfortunately, I was being too loyal to a 'friend' who obviously was in a bit over his head with our car. My bad...

This almost always leads to disappointment. When you help out a friend to this level, you will almost certainly lose them. I know you had a similar experience with another shop a couple of years ago.

I have similar experiences...and, they have ended the same.

You and Nadine are business people....treat it as such. Get focused. You know what jobs on your car you are willing to do and what you aren't. For the work you won't or can't do, find the BEST, pay the price, and enjoy the results. Don't be led astray by friends or friends of friends...it's YOUR MONEY (and, potentially, YOUR LIFE).

It sounds trite; but, you know it's better to pay more upfront for quality work. You could have probably had two top quality motors for the money you have sunk into rework. Regroup mentally, shrug it off, and move forward. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten” – Benjamin Franklin

[Cairo94507]

Bob- Truly every owner's nightmare. We sink time, energy and money into our cars and all we really want is a car that runs the way it is designed to run. There are, unfortunately, some shops which grow faster than they can adjust to, or who just get bogged down in work and can no longer provide the attention to detail they once did. The hard part is recognizing that and pulling the pin when appropriate. Finding a new shop which does that high-quality work is the challenge. We all know several major engine builders who are members here who do outstanding work. I always prefer to go with someone who has been personally recommended. I hope you are able to come back from this disappointment and once again enjoy the hobby you and your wife love so much.

[stownsen914]

Really sorry to hear about the trouble, Bob. My parents went through a similar ordeal years ago getting an ex-IMSA 911 running. Seemed like endless troubles until things settled down eventually. If you decide to go with a Peter Dawe motor, you won't be disappointed. Hopefully enough of the motor is salvageable that you can have him build you the "same" engine and get you back on the road.

On my side, I lost the motor in my 914 at Monticello, and now am seeing some telltale metal flakes in the 911"s oil filter. Grrr ... So I feel a bit of your pain, brother.

Stick with it, and it will work out.

[mepstein]

Take a break. Put aside some money. Get a new engine. Put the past in the past and have fun again.

I'd still like to meet you guys one day. Maybe next time I drop off or pick up my son at Davidson college.

[naro914]

I'd still like to meet you guys one day. Maybe next time I drop off or pick up my son at Davidson college.

How about at Okteenerfest!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[mepstein]

I'd still like to meet you guys one day. Maybe next time I drop off or pick up my son at Davidson college.

How about at Okteenerfest!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Using up all my vacation time to take care of my daughter after surgery and its to far away to drive my. 1.7. Next year hopefully with a 3.2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)